UFOs: Generals, Pilots and Government Officials Go On the Record

[nismaratwork]

Hemp protection... ahhhh, you worked on "Reefer Madness" if I'm reading this right... right?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Hemp protection... ahhhh, you worked on "Reefer Madness" if I'm reading this right... right?

I wondered if it would take more than one post for someone to pick up on that.

The inside joke was that I was doing HEMP testing for the DOD.

Of course, the H is for high-altitude, which refers to the source of the EMP - a high-altitude nuclear detonation.

 

[nismaratwork]

I wondered if it would take more than one post for someone to pick up on that.

The inside joke was that I was doing HEMP testing for the DOD.

Of course, the H is for high-altitude, which refers to the source of the EMP - a high-altitude nuclear detonation.

Ha! Remember... it could have been: "HAND-EMP or the like. Someone in the naming department was sucking on a joint while that folder was being printed, or at least, it would explain a LOT.

Nice souvenir however, once you put the kidding aside it's quite impressive. Did you enjoy the work and the team you worked with?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Did you enjoy the work and the team you worked with?

The weeks were often 80-hours long and there was unbelievable pressure at times, but it was fantastically interesting and fun. I had a chance to go to Kwajalein but didn't want to spend six months on a sand bar. I also had a shot at the final programming for the launch control system but lost that job to Rockwell [just as well, I didn't want to spend two years in nowhere Alaska!]. For the EMP stuff, I answered directly to the company President so I wasn't really a part of a team on that one. That was just lots of research, cost analysis, and report writing.

I also had the opportunity to work on a stealth boat-submarine for the Iraelis, which was a real treat. In fact, that's what got my foot in the door for the other jobs.

 

[nismaratwork]

The weeks were often 80-hours long and there was unbelievable pressure at times, but it was fantastically interesting and fun. I had a chance to go to Kwajalein but didn't want to spend six months on a sand bar. I also had a shot at the final programming for the launch control system but lost that job to Rockwell [just as well, I didn't want to spend two years in nowhere Alaska!]. For the EMP stuff, I answered directly to the company President so I wasn't really a part of a team on that one. That was just lots of research, cost analysis, and report writing.

I also had the opportunity to work on a stealth boat-submarine for the Iraelis, which was a real treat. In fact, that's what got my foot in the door for the other jobs.

So we're talking about high-pressure type-A work, but rewarding and fun. I have to say, it sounds like a fantastic experience; thanks for telling us about it!

 

[Ivan Seeking]

So we're talking about high-pressure type-A work, but rewarding and fun. I have to say, it sounds like a fantastic experience; thanks for telling us about it!

It was fun but type-A is right, and it will kill you. In fact, nevermind heart attacks, while I was doing some of the engineering work, the project manager on that part of the project fell asleep while driving home - after a twenty-hour day, and probably one of several that week - and nearly died. He rolled his truck but he was okay. It was a close call.

It has been long enough now that I finally feel comfortable talking about it in a bit of detail. It was fortuitous that I had a good excuse to bring it up. It definitely ranks as one of the highlights of my career.

...and there's not many guys that can say they did HEMP testing for the DOD.

 

[nismaratwork]

It was fun but type-A is right, and it will kill you. In fact, nevermind heart attacks, while I was doing some of the engineering work, the project manager on that part of the project fell asleep while driving home - after a twenty-hour day, and probably one of several that week - and nearly died. He rolled his truck but he was okay. It was a close call.

It has been long enough now that I finally feel comfortable talking about it in a bit of detail. It was fortuitous that I had a good excuse to bring it up. It definitely ranks as one of the highlights of my career.

...and there's not many guys that can say they did HEMP testing for the DOD.

Wow... that's type-A with rabies!... sounds fun. I still love the HEMP testing for the DOD, and let's face it, when you tell people what HEMP stands for, it's far more interesting than hemp (the plant). Thanks again Ivan, this is interesting stuff and has rekindled some interest for me in how EMP hardening is achieved in practice and not theory.

 

[alisterio]

I suppose the only thing left to be said is that Gelder seems to be a pretty poor artist when it comes to painting doves, and the like.

I just stumbled across this forum, and am obviously reading posts from people far more knowledgeable in this area than I, but, to look at this artist's painting and say that he tried to paint a dove and is so unskilled at his craft that he actually painted what most, if not all observers, would say appears to be a contemporary depiction of a flying saucer, is obtuse at best. What it really comes off as though is being a real jerk in an otherwise informative discussion.

 

[alisterio]

And here we see a saucer with a laser beam:

FCOL - "A saucer with a laser beam?"

Sure, you could describe it that way if you wanted [STRIKE]to be right at all costs[/STRIKE] support your opinion. But again, most reasonable people who see a work of art and see a round YELLOWish object in the top left of right corner with a line in that same color emanating from it would not use that terminology. The would call it the "Sun" and a ray of light or sun beam.

I know when I first started painting, drawing, etc at around five years old, that's where I put the sun and it's pretty clear that one artist drew a disc hovering in the sky, and the other drew the sun.


After reading the first 20 pages of this thread - I teach French at an inner city school in DC on the day before Thanksgiving, it's hard enough to get them in class on regular days, I've got some free time - I have faith in the message board gods that you will no doubt be able to cut, copy, paste and parse my words to demonstrate to the world how my first and only two posts on this subject are even sillier than the concept that ETs are among us.

 

[Vagn]

I just stumbled across this forum, and am obviously reading posts from people far more knowledgeable in this area than I, but, to look at this artist's painting and say that he tried to paint a dove and is so unskilled at his craft that he actually painted what most, if not all observers, would say appears to be a contemporary depiction of a flying saucer, is obtuse at best. What it really comes off as though is being a real jerk in an otherwise informative discussion.

If you ignore other images of the divine dove that look similar, but have a larger dove, then yes it does look like a "UFO" but when you see images like http://www.cryptomundo.com/wp-content/uploads/descentoftheholyghost.jpg" which have an almost identical design, then it is a bit of a dubious claim. Not to mention that it is a painting of John the Baptist baptising Jesus in the River Jordan, so why on Earth a UFO ought to be present, God only knows (No pun intended).

 

[alisterio]

I present to you http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_Sun" . Here, upwards of 30,000 people were all confused at once. Surely, at least a few hundred of them were very clever people (perhaps they were pilots, military officials, doctors, or break dancers). By your rules, we cannot discount their observations because there were so many of them.

That link hardly points to the reports of 30,000 people. It is mainly the second hand information (quotes he got from other people and printed in his book(s).) taken from Father De Marchi. Hundreds maybe, gathered second hand, 700 years ago. Hardly the equivalent to the eye-witness testimony being referred to in this thread and the book of the same title.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I present to you http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_Sun" . Here, upwards of 30,000 people were all confused at once. Surely, at least a few hundred of them were very clever people (perhaps they were pilots, military officials, doctors, or break dancers). By your rules, we cannot discount their observations because there were so many of them.

However, do you find it likely that the entire solar system was torn apart, the Earth was sent hurtling towards the sun, and only 30,000 people in Portugal knew about it? I have given you a clear example where 30,000 people were all confused about a single event. I suggest you study the case carefully.

The error in your logic is the assumption that the event was real if and only if the interpretation of the event was correct.

In my book, it's a UFO report.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

That link hardly points to the reports of 30,000 people. It is mainly the second hand information (quotes he got from other people and printed in his book(s).) taken from Father De Marchi. Hundreds maybe, gathered second hand, 700 years ago. Hardly the equivalent to the eye-witness testimony being referred to in this thread and the book of the same title.

It is also circular logic to assume that an event never took place, and then use this assumption as evidence that other reported events never happened.

But your last point is the most significant. The point of this thread was to discuss the most credible cases where "Generals, Pilots and Government Officials Go On the Record", not those that are easily challenged or obvious dead ends.

 

[nismaratwork]

Was that so easily challenged in its own time? I don't know, but I'll concede it's generally off the OP topic. There are other examples of people seeing a reflection of their city in the sky, which is a kind of mirage... there is a famous example I keep trying to find a citation for, but I forget the city in the US!

Anyway, in my travels and travails I came across this: http://listverse.com/2008/04/19/20-amazing-and-unusual-weather-phenomena/

Certainly this is just a place to jump-off from in terms of reliable sources, but the photos and the list are worth it.

Here's a question: as land-bound mammals the only people who get to see some natural (and amazing, if regular) phenomenon such as TLE's ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper-atmospheric_lightning )... maybe that makes them good as witnesses, but not when they draw conclusions?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Was that so easily challenged in its own time? I don't know, but I'll concede it's generally off the OP topic. There are other examples of people seeing a reflection of their city in the sky, which is a kind of mirage... there is a famous example I keep trying to find a citation for, but I forget the city in the US!

Anyway, in my travels and travails I came across this: http://listverse.com/2008/04/19/20-amazing-and-unusual-weather-phenomena/

Certainly this is just a place to jump-off from in terms of reliable sources, but the photos and the list are worth it.

Here's a question: as land-bound mammals the only people who get to see some natural (and amazing, if regular) phenomenon such as TLE's ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper-atmospheric_lightning )... maybe that makes them good as witnesses, but not when they draw conclusions?

It is not appropriate to post potential answers to claims not made. In order to be applicable, you would need to show these phenomena can account for specific claims that meet the criteria specified in the title.

It is no secret to anyone that these phenomena account for many typical UFO reports, but not all UFO reports are typical. It is the 1%-5% that interest us, not the 95%-99% that even the most devout UFO researchers accept as easily explainable.

I have several pages of interesting reports in the Napster. Is it a mystery that in over seven years, [as nearly as I can recall... it is very rare at best] no debunker has ever cited any of these for discussion? [edit, after ponding this thought a bit, there are probably a few examples, so again we get back to the 1% rule. ]

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Was that so easily challenged in its own time? I don't know, but I'll concede it's generally off the OP topic.

Forgot to respond to this: I do think that is an interesting case, but not for this thread. Also, a claim that old, and one lacking any solid references, is pretty tough to evaluate.

I was thinking more of the references to artwork with part of my comment. How to interpret a beam of light on a painting, is a pretty hopeless discussion.

 

[christopherV]

Hi everyone let me start by saying I'm not a UFO nut, but i live in fort worth and during the Stephenville sightings I did witness a "Black Triangle", not as a distant thing but with in about a eighth to a quarter of a mile. It was as real and solid as the laptop I'm now typing on. So I have never questioned the idea of whether they are real, only what the heck are they. My conclusion is that :

A: It was a real structured object in the sky that interacted with it's environment.
B: It displayed unconventional flight characteristics.

So I became obsessed with finding out what it was, how it would be built, and what kind of science would be involved. I now believe that there is more than enough technology available to construct the craft that I saw with good old fashioned human ingenuity.

Take an large number of asymmetrical capacitors (been around since the 50's), some black budget money, a handful of scientists, and a nuclear power plant, boom instant flying hovering triangle that has an ionic smell, a soft glow, and can hover silently forever... then to keep it secret let's start talking about UFOs.

I think the UFO thing is all smoke and mirrors I mean the SR-71 is 1960's (50 years old) technology and it's still the fastest and highest flying declassified military plane. So we are to assume that the exponential growth of technology doesn't apply to aviation?

My only caveat is that this does not apply to older sightings...some preflight.

Love the convo.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Hi everyone let me start by saying I'm not a UFO nut, but i live in fort worth and during the Stephenville sightings I did witness a "Black Triangle", not as a distant thing but with in about a eighth to a quarter of a mile. It was as real and solid as the laptop I'm now typing on. So I have never questioned the idea of whether they are real, only what the heck are they. My conclusion is that :

A: It was a real structured object in the sky that interacted with it's environment.
B: It displayed unconventional flight characteristics.

So I became obsessed with finding out what it was, how it would be built, and what kind of science would be involved. I now believe that there is more than enough technology available to construct the craft that I saw with good old fashioned human ingenuity.

Thanks for sharing. How did your observations compare with the other reports? What unusual flight characteristics did you observe?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

This is one thing that has never made sense. Considering events like Stephenville, Texas, or Highland, Illinois: Why would these guys keep flying classified aircrafts, the existence of which has been denied since at least the early 80s [I think the modern black triangle reports in the US go back to about 1976], over populated areas, at low altitude? In the case of Highland, it was chased or observed by police officers from three precincts.

Also, after all of these years, I've never read even a claim that someone was a pilot for one of these crafts.

 

[christopherV]

Thanks for sharing. How did your observations compare with the other reports? What unusual flight characteristics did you observe?

The UFO was amazingly large, mind numbly staggeringly large. maybe a football field or so, yet it hovered silently, displayed vector thrusting to the point of being able to turn 90 degrees without banking and while standing almost still. It had no wings no obvious airfoil or rotor. While the possibility has occurred to me that it could have been an internal rotor type craft with some sort of noise canceling device. My gut says that it was probably an ionic craft of some sort, that has absolutely no basis just feels right after seeing it.

This is one thing that has never made sense. Considering events like Stephenville, Texas, or Highland, Illinois: Why would these guys keep flying classified aircrafts, the existence of which has been denied since at least the early 80s [I think the modern black triangle reports in the US go back to about 1976], over populated areas, at low altitude? In the case of Highland, it was chased or observed by police officers from three precincts.

Also, after all of these years, I've never read even a claim that someone was a pilot for one of these crafts.

I think that the ships may be taking off and they have a very long trajectory because of the low lift to weight ratio of a craft constructed with asymmetrical capacitors would have.

Or they could be flying over all the time; they stay low to stay out of radar and they are only apparent when they have some sort of technical malfunction that breaks down a cloaking device of some sort. (side note: the British have publicly tested an invisibility cloak for tanks)

As for the pilots coming out, I have absolutely no idea...but I have to admit that the idea that it is a US secret project scares me a whole lot less than if it was an extra terrestrial craft.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

The UFO was amazingly large, mind numbly staggeringly large. maybe a football field or so, yet it hovered silently, displayed vector thrusting to the point of being able to turn 90 degrees without banking and while standing almost still. It had no wings no obvious airfoil or rotor. While the possibility has occurred to me that it could have been an internal rotor type craft with some sort of noise canceling device. My gut says that it was probably an ionic craft of some sort, that has absolutely no basis just feels right after seeing it.

Please note that it isn't appropriate to speculate about the nature of any related technologies, but you are welcome to describe what you saw. We can offer potential mainstream explanations when possible. The only possible explanation that I can offer is one that has been kicked around for years: You saw some kind of blimp. The idea of a hybridized lighter-than-air craft has long been a favored explanation for these reports. This explanation would seem to be consistent with many elements of the reports.

To the best of my knowledge, any ionic drive system that one might imagine would not have the lifting capacity for a large craft. Consider that the lifter toys seen that use high voltage are very low in thrust, which is why they are extremely light. So from an engineering perspective, that explanation would have to be considered highly speculative at best; thus not appropriate for discussion.

 

[jreelawg]

The UFO was amazingly large, mind numbly staggeringly large. maybe a football field or so, yet it hovered silently, displayed vector thrusting to the point of being able to turn 90 degrees without banking and while standing almost still. It had no wings no obvious airfoil or rotor. While the possibility has occurred to me that it could have been an internal rotor type craft with some sort of noise canceling device. My gut says that it was probably an ionic craft of some sort, that has absolutely no basis just feels right after seeing it.

Did it have three lights, (one in each corner)? What I saw, to me looked much smaller in my perspective, if what I saw were a football field wide, then the diameter of the lights would have been maybe 10 yards wide at least. I'm just curious, if what I saw was the same thing, or something similar.

You say that it made 90 degree turns without banking. Did it do this at considerable speed?

 

[jreelawg]

What I saw, (the lights) I would describe as similar in appearance to the light that you see from lighting. In my case, the light was electric blue in color, however I have read reports similar to mine except that orange, red or violet light had been reported, and some report the color changing.

Would it seam that what I saw may be consistent with some sort of ionic phenomena or propulsion?

 

[christopherV]

What I saw, (the lights) I would describe as similar in appearance to the light that you see from lighting. In my case, the light was electric blue in color, however I have read reports similar to mine except that orange, red or violet light had been reported, and some report the color changing.

Would it seam that what I saw may be consistent with some sort of ionic phenomena or propulsion?

Mine had a strange blue haze across the bottom but no lights as i saw. though it was silhouetted on the night sky. It was almost standing still when it turned and then shot off at a clip of 100-150 mph.

I'm sorry that I can not comment on the ionic phenomena as my last post was removed and i was given an infraction for speculating on a non peer reviewed subject and i don't want another.

 

[nismaratwork]

I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned how incredibly likely it is that this was one of the many aircraft or other phenomena mentioned earlier in this thread. As for blue glows, that can be 'St. Elmo's Fire', diffuse lighting, or even light from the moon being diffused through a transparent dirigible. I find that a far more likely speculation that a giant TIE fighter. At some point this thread moved from debunking and skepticism to, "share your close encounter"... I think around the time FlexGunship gave up on it, which I in turn am also doing.

 

[nismaratwork]

Mine had a strange blue haze across the bottom but no lights as i saw. though it was silhouetted on the night sky. It was almost standing still when it turned and then shot off at a clip of 100-150 mph.

I'm sorry that I can not comment on the ionic phenomena as my last post was removed and i was given an infraction for speculating on a non peer reviewed subject and i don't want another.

It's been well established in this thread that humans are rot at guessing the velocity of objects with an indeterminate distance. The same goes for estimating light sources and size... You're making a vast number of assumptions after the fact... how about sticking to your observations rather than your conclusions.

 

[christopherV]

It's been well established in this thread that humans are rot at guessing the velocity of objects with an indeterminate distance. The same goes for estimating light sources and size... You're making a vast number of assumptions after the fact... how about sticking to your observations rather than your conclusions.

That is completely unhelpful to the conversation. Sorry you're mad. have no idea. I'm just making an informed conclusion to the phenomenon that i saw.

 

[FlexGunship]

That is completely unhelpful to the conversation. Sorry you're mad. have no idea. I'm just making an informed conclusion to the phenomenon that i saw.

Well, it's actually very important to the conversation, Christopher, for the following reason:

Every individual maintains the sense that he or she is an ideal bastion of observation; a perfect source of conclusions based on what our senses tell us. Nismar is trying to make the point that humans are fundamentally bad at this. It's not that you are bad, but rather that all humans are pretty bad at it.

The thing is, and this is important, we don't feel bad at it. In fact, sometimes we feel incredibly sure of our personal observations and amazingly confident in our conclusions. However the mere act of trying to give an explanation often sours the entire venture; cognitive biases plunder our minds and barbarize objective reason.

Despite your experience, there's actually a very good chance that you misunderstood your observations. Not because you're a bad observer, but because you're human... just like all of us. Both Ivan and Nismar said it well: share your observations, but try not to hang too much weight on them, and avoid premature conclusions.

We've all been there before, we all have our stories, and we all might be wrong. ​

 

[nismaratwork]

That is completely unhelpful to the conversation. Sorry you're mad. have no idea. I'm just making an informed conclusion to the phenomenon that i saw.

FlexGunship has said it well, but I'll be blunt: What informs your conclusions, when your observations are fundamentally unsound due to a condition of being HUMAN. We are terrible at judging distance, size, and shape outside of a relatively narrow distance designed for our cursorial hunting past.

The conversation is as the title of the thread states, and while it may have been deleted I still had the joy of reading your "conclusions" about the nature of the "craft". Your idea of skepticism is far from the reality of that mindset... it's not about just reigning in your WILDEST ideas...

 

[christopherV]

Well, it's actually very important to the conversation, Christopher, for the following reason:

Every individual maintains the sense that he or she is an ideal bastion of observation; a perfect source of conclusions based on what our senses tell us. Nismar is trying to make the point that humans are fundamentally bad at this. It's not that you are bad, but rather that all humans are pretty bad at it.

The thing is, and this is important, we don't feel bad at it. In fact, sometimes we feel incredibly sure of our personal observations and amazingly confident in our conclusions. However the mere act of trying to give an explanation often sours the entire venture; cognitive biases plunder our minds and barbarize objective reason.

Despite your experience, there's actually a very good chance that you misunderstood your observations. Not because you're a bad observer, but because you're human... just like all of us. Both Ivan and Nismar said it well: share your observations, but try not to hang too much weight on them, and avoid premature conclusions.

We've all been there before, we all have our stories, and we all might be wrong. ​

That is an eloquent well thought out reasonable retort to the entire observational process.

The problem I have with the current climate of skepticism in general is...it wouldn't pass mustard in a court room. What you are trying to do in a strictly legal sense is impeach the witness. You may legally impeach a witness for these reasons.

Bias--The witness is biased against one party or in favor of the other. The witness has a personal interest in the outcome of the case.

Inconsistent Statement--The witness has made two or more conflicting statements. By exposing his conflicting statements, you reduce his credibility.

Character--The witness has a community-recognized reputation for dishonesty.

Competency--The witness was unable to sense what he claimed to have (such as he could not see from where he was) or that he lacked the requisite mental capacity.

Contradiction--The witness is induced to contradict his own testimony during the present proceeding.

The observation conclusion process has lead us to many astounding revelations: evolution, Newtonian physics, relativity the list goes on and on without the conclusions that these men made they never would have questioned the long standing dogma.

and after all Edison failed a hundred times at making the light bulb, right?

So you attack the competency of the observer. I however am of sound mind and I have both of my eyes and ears. Making me a sound observer of the incident in question. Perhaps some of the finer details like size and speed could generally be called into question, but the question of whether the event happened is unimpeachable.

I have never been accused of dishonesty in this community...or in general.

I have not contradicted my testimony.

I have not been inconsistent.

I do however believe the emperor wears no clothes...so i am biased, it happened.

and i fail as a witness.

but aren't we all a little biased.