Brazil Releases Classified UFO Data

  • #26
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Ivan Seeking said:
I don't have one.
I for one have no doubt whatever that SGT is Brazilian ex-military, now professor of engineering and I wouldn't ask for any confirmation of that that would require him to give personal information about himself anymore than I'd require you to give me your name, name of your business, and schooling information so I could check that you're really what you claim.
 
  • #27
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zoobyshoe said:
I for one have no doubt whatever that SGT is Brazilian ex-military, now professor of engineering and I wouldn't ask for any confirmation of that that would require him to give personal information about himself anymore than I'd require you to give me your name, name of your business, and schooling information so I could check that you're really what you claim.
As I said, if someone wishes to cite their unique authority on a subject as justification for taking their answers at face value, then some kind of proof must be offered.

The only difference here is the need to provide links and specific information that support claims made, which we all have to do.
 
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  • #28
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Ivan Seeking said:
As I said, if someone wishes to cite their unique authority on a subject as justification for taking their answers at face value, then some kind of proof must be offered.
What I percieve is you asking for a "proof" when that proof entails something most people wouldn't do under any circumstances, and if he declines you'll try to construe it to mean he was lying.
 
  • #29
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zoobyshoe said:
What I percieve is you asking for a "proof" when that proof entails something most people wouldn't do under any circumstances, and if he declines you'll try to construe it to mean he was lying.
Oh really! I didn't realize that you had such great insights into what I might do.

Look, you have to admit that what SGT claims is pretty coincidental. If true, great! Glad to have you here. And I see that you, SGT, do post very good information in the engineering forums, so I recognize that you are very competent in some subjects here.

I am certainly skeptical but I didn't delete any posts or call him a liar, but come on, the coincidence is a little overwhelming. I'm due my fair share of skepticism. But in any case I'm not about to take anyone's claim as true at face value - and we can't recognize anyone as an authority - unless they can show it to be true. You are free to believe him or not, but unless SGT can back up what he says, and although the desire for anonymity is certainly understood, his claims are no better or worse than anyone elses here. In the same sense, we take someone like Jim Oberg at face value [without the requirement for supporting information] because we do have references for his credentials.
 
  • #30
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Ivan Seeking said:
Oh really! I didn't realize that you had such great insights into what I might do.
You're acting like I couldn't possibly percieve what you're up to yet you plainly revealed you think he's lying with your previous "What a coincidence!"

Look, you have to admit that what SGT claims is pretty coincidental. If true, great! Glad to have you here. And I see that you, SGT, do post very good information in the engineering forums, so I recognize that you are very competent in some subjects here.

I am certainly skeptical but I didn't delete any posts or call him a liar, but come on, the coincidence is a little overwhelming. I'm due my fair share of skepticism. But in any case I'm not about to take anyone's claim as true at face value - and we can't recognize anyone as an authority - unless they can show it to be true. You are free to believe him or not, but unless SGT can back up what he says, and although the desire for anonymity is certainly understood, his claims are no better or worse than anyone elses here.
This isn't an "I think..." or "It's my understanding..." type thing where a person's statements can be held in limbo as "no better or worse than anyone elses here." He is either lying or telling the truth about having been an officer in the Brazilian military. By calling him into question you force his word to be either better or very much worse, than anyone elses here.
In the same sense, we take someone like Jim Oberg at face value [without the requirement for supporting information] because we do have references for his credentials.
What I find completely consistant with SGT's statement of being an ex-military officer is that he "writes" military: always very formal, never personally warm (apologies SGT), which is pretty unusual for a Brazilian, since they tend to be quite extroverted. He doesn't joke around and doesn't socialize here. All business. In addition, he has never given me the slightest reason to suspect he would fake any information to win an argument.

In another thread here I asked Aether if he was familiar with some of the more bizarre electromagnetic effects. He replied that he happened to be an expert in magnetic sensors and had designed a few. I didn't sarcastically remark "What a coincidence! Can you provide credentials?" By the same token I didn't find SGT's revelation he was ex-Brazilian army to be any sort of "overwhelming" coicidence. My first thought was that it explained why his tone is the way it is, and it fit right in with my preconceptions about him.
 
  • #31
SGT
Only now have I seen the exchange between Ivan and zoobieshoe. I thank zoobie for his defense. As for Ivan, I don't have a web page, so I can't prove my affirmations. I don't have to. The only appeal to authority I made was about official documents in Brazil having letterheads and classified documents being so labelled. This is not too hard to believe. Even if Brazil lies in the southern hemisphere, we are not so backwards as you seem to think.
I did not use my military background to dismiss captain Hollanda's report. I believe that he made the document. What I doubt is that the pages presented came from the Air Force. They seem to be carbon copies of a document typed in a mechanical typewriter.
It is possible that the originals are filed in some military organization and captain Hollanda kept the copies with him. There is no reason for those documents being secret. The only information there that could affect national security are the sketches of the region, but with satellite imaging, I am sure that better maps are available, even at Google Earth.
 
  • #32
SGT
And Ivan, if you really think it is important, I can send you in private a copy of my military ID and of my badge at the engineering school.
 
  • #33
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SGT may be from the brazilian army, but these documents were made and released by the airforce, so there could be a difference. From what i remember the brazilian ufologists know that the airforce has even more documents about this, but they wont release them. They also know the army has documents about this but the army wont cooperate at all.

Here is a video of them paying a visit to the airforce and some of the officers say something in portugese:
http://www.ufo.com.br/videos-traillers/fantastico/UFOLOGIA.wmv

source: http://www.ufo.com.br/videos/ufologosBrasilia.htm
 
  • #34
SGT
PIT2 said:
SGT may be from the brazilian army, but these documents were made and released by the airforce, so there could be a difference. From what i remember the brazilian ufologists know that the airforce has even more documents about this, but they wont release them. They also know the army has documents about this but the army wont cooperate at all.

Here is a video of them paying a visit to the airforce and some of the officers say something in portugese:
http://www.ufo.com.br/videos-traillers/fantastico/UFOLOGIA.wmv

source: http://www.ufo.com.br/videos/ufologosBrasilia.htm
The video you linked to is from a variety show in Brazilian TV, named Fantástico. It is aired every Sunday by TV Globo.
It shows the visit of Brazilian ufologists to Brazilian Air Defense and Air Traffic Control Command (COMDABRA). The guys were received by an Air Force general who allowed them a guided visit at the installations. At the end of the visit they saw 3 files containing UFO related documents, one of them the OPERAÇÃO PRATO file, and 2 file drawers containing classified documents dated since 1954. They were informed that the documents are labelled confidential (much less restrictive then secret) and were not accessible to the public yet, but the Ufologists were encouraged to ask for the disclosure in the proper instances.
I have never denied that the guys were received by Air Force authorities. Their web pages show photos of their visit and I have no reason to believe they are faked.
As for I being from Army and not Air Force, I assure you that all official documents in Brazilian administration, be them military or civilian, have letterheads.
The information in the video that the documents are not released to the public, confirms my suspicion that the ufologists had access to a personal copy of them.
And before Ivan challenges me again, I assure you that I speak Portuguese very well, but I have no means to prove it.
 
  • #35
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SGT said:
Only now have I seen the exchange between Ivan and zoobieshoe. I thank zoobie for his defense. As for Ivan, I don't have a web page, so I can't prove my affirmations. I don't have to. The only appeal to authority I made was about official documents in Brazil having letterheads and classified documents being so labelled. This is not too hard to believe. Even if Brazil lies in the southern hemisphere, we are not so backwards as you seem to think.
I didn't want to allow unchecked authoritative discussion, but I checked and I see that you are in Brazil. Since that alone is pretty coincidental, I must admit to a significant reduction in my skepticism. Is English a second language for you?

As for the letterhead, I didn't see it as a significant issue. That is to say that I could see personal notes being used in official files. That's not so hard to believe.
 
  • #36
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SGT said:
And Ivan, if you really think it is important, I can send you in private a copy of my military ID and of my badge at the engineering school.
Nope, with that I'm convinced. What is your degree? You seem geared for E&M work.
 
  • #37
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Ivan Seeking said:
I didn't want to allow unchecked authoritative discussion, but I checked and I see that you are in Brazil. Since that alone is pretty coincidental, I must admit to a significant reduction in my skepticism. Is English a second language for you?
In reality, English is a third language for me. My French is much better than my English.
As for the letterhead, I didn't see it as a significant issue. That is to say that I could see personal notes being used in official files. That's not so hard to believe.
As I said in a previous post, I believe that the notes are authentic, only they are not official. I believe captain Hollanda made a private carbon copy of his official report and this was given to the Brazilian Ufologists. The video that PIT2 has linked to seems to confirm this. At the end of the video, the narrator says that even if the Air Force is sympathetic to the idea to disclose the documents, they can't do it until they are declassified. The Ufologists are encouraged to ask the declassification in the appropriate forums.
 
  • #38
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Ivan Seeking said:
Nope, with that I'm convinced. What is your degree? You seem geared for E&M work.
I am an electrical engineer with a MSc in electrical engineering and a doctor degree in automatic control.
 
  • #39
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SGT said:
In reality, English is a third language for me. My French is much better than my English.
I had you pegged all wrong and I think this is why. Your English is good enough that I thought you to be an American, but I had you figured for a young bright type who would resort to BS when cornered. Anyway, my mistake; glad to have you here! :biggrin:
 
  • #40
SGT
Ivan Seeking said:
I had you pegged all wrong and I think this is why. Your English is good enough that I thought you to be an American, but I had you figured for a young bright type who would resort to BS when cornered. Anyway, my mistake; glad to have you here! :biggrin:
No offense taken. And thanks for your welcome.
 
  • #41
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SGT said:
I am an electrical engineer with a MSc in electrical engineering and a doctor degree in automatic control.
I do private consulting, engineering, and programming, for industrial automation. B.S. Physics.
 
  • #42
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...and I offer my fellow mentor Integral who knows me personally and will vouch for this information. :biggrin:
 
  • #43
SGT
Ivan Seeking said:
...and I offer my fellow mentor Integral who knows me personally and will vouch for this information. :biggrin:
From your posts I see that you are very knowledgeable in Physics, so I believe in your information.
 

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