Understanding an argument in Intermediate Value Theorem

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the Intermediate Value Theorem (IVT) and its implications regarding the continuity of functions. Participants explore the proof of the theorem, specifically addressing the conditions under which a continuous function takes on a value between its endpoints.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents a proof involving the set S defined as ##S = \{ x: f(x) \lt L\}## and discusses the implications of continuity at a point c where ##f(c) > L##.
  • Another participant reiterates the definition of continuity and explains how it applies to the argument, specifically choosing ##\epsilon = f(c) - L## to establish that ##f(c-h) > L## for small h.
  • A third participant questions the expression ##|f(c-h) - f(c)| = f(c) - f(c-h)##, seeking clarification on its validity.
  • One participant offers an informal explanation of the argument, linking it to the definition of continuity and suggesting that their assumption about delta may invoke the IVT.
  • Another participant introduces the concept of connectedness, arguing that the absence of a c such that ##f(c)=L## would imply a disconnection in the image set, thus challenging the continuity assumption.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express various interpretations of the continuity definition and its implications for the IVT. There is no consensus on the validity of certain expressions or the implications of continuity, indicating ongoing debate and exploration of the concepts.

Contextual Notes

Some participants highlight the dependence on specific definitions and the potential for ambiguity in the continuity argument. The discussion also touches on the implications of continuity for connectedness, which remains unresolved.

Hall
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We have to prove:
If ##f: [a,b] \to \mathcal{R}## is continuous, and there is a ##L## such that ##f(a) \lt L \lt f(b)## (or the other way round), then there exists some ##c \in [a,b]## such that ##f(c) = L##.

Proof: Let ##S = \{ x: f(x) \lt L\}##. As ##S## is a set of real numbers and non-empty, therefore we can assume ##\sup S = c##.

CASE 1: Here is the standard argument "if ##f(c) \gt L##, then by continuity ##f(c-h) \gt L## for some small ##h##". How does continuity imply that? Is it like this:
if ##f(c) \gt L##, and for some small ##h## if ##f(c-h) \lt L##, then we have
$$
\begin{align*}
f(c) - f(c-h) \gt 0 \\
\lim_{h \to 0} (f(c) - f(c-h)) \gt 0 && \textrm{and by continuity, we have} \\
f(c) - f(c) \gt 0 \\
0 \gt 0 && \textrm{which is absurd} \\
\end{align*}
$$
Therefore, for small ##h## ##f(c-h) \gt L##.
 
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This is just a simple application of the definition of continuity of f at c.

By definition, f is continuous at c iff for every \epsilon > 0 there exists \delta > 0 such that if |x - c| < \delta then |f(x) - f(c)| < \epsilon.

If f(c) &gt; L we can therefore make the particular choice of \epsilon = f(c) - L &gt; 0 and conclude that if 0 &lt; h &lt; \delta then <br /> f(c - h) &gt; f(c) - (f(c) - L) = L.
 
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pasmith said:
This is just a simple application of the definition of continuity of f at c.

By definition, f is continuous at c iff for every \epsilon &gt; 0 there exists \delta &gt; 0 such that if |x - c| &lt; \delta then |f(x) - f(c)| &lt; \epsilon.

If f(c) &gt; L we can therefore make the particular choice of \epsilon = f(c) - L &gt; 0 and conclude that if 0 &lt; h &lt; \delta then <br /> f(c - h) &gt; f(c) - (f(c) - L) = L.
Why ##|f(c-h) -f(c)| = f(c) - f(c-h)##?
 
Hall said:
Why ##|f(c-h) -f(c)| = f(c) - f(c-h)##?

We have <br /> |f(c) - f(c-h)| &lt; f(c) - L \Leftrightarrow f(c) - (f(c) - L) &lt; f(c - h) &lt; f(c) + (f(c) - L) We don't care about the upper bound here; all we need to know is that f(c - h) is strictly greater than L.
 
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@pasmith I took some time to carefully understand your completely formal validation of that argument.

Sir, I would like to request your wise opinion on the following explanation, though a bit informal, of that argument:
If ##f(c) \gt L##, we can safely write ##f(c) - L = \varepsilon##. Since, the definition of continuity says
"A function is continuous at point ##x## if the difference between ##f(x)## and ##f(x + \delta)## (where ##\delta## is an infinitesimal increment) is ##f(x) - f(x+\delta)##"
(Cauchy's Course de Analyse, section 2.2)

So, decrease ##c## by an amount ##delta## such that ##f(c) - f(c-\delta) = \varepsilon/2##. And on coupling it with the previous relation on L, we get
##f(c-\delta) - L = \varepsilon/2##
##f(c-\delta) \gt L##.

But it seems to me that when I assumed there exists a delta, which upon subtracted from c, which would produce a distance of ##epsilon/2##, is in itself an application of IVT.

This definition of continuity
$$
\begin{align*}
\textrm{ for every epsilon > 0 there exits a delta > 0 such that}\\
|x-c| \lt \delta \implies |f(x) - f(c) | \lt \epsilon
\end{align*}
$$
Doesn't it imply that at every distance from ##f(c)## there is a ##f(x)## for an ##x## in the interval?
 
You can also see this from the perspective of connectedness. Continuous maps preserve connectedness. If there was no such c with f(c)=L, the image set would have a disconnection at L. And your set S will need to be bounded above in order to be guaranteed having an upper bound; the set ##(3, \infty)## has no ( Real) upper bound.
 
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