Understanding chemical depictions.

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the chemical depiction of the phosphate ion (PO4^3−), focusing on the interpretation of its charge and the symbols used to represent the bonds between phosphorus and oxygen atoms. Participants explore the implications of these symbols in a three-dimensional context and their relevance to chemical structure and bonding.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants clarify that the notation ^3− indicates the phosphate ion has a charge of -3, which is associated with the overall ion rather than just the oxygen atoms.
  • There is confusion regarding the symbols connecting the oxygen atoms to phosphorus, with some participants seeking clarification on their meanings.
  • One participant describes the solid triangle, dashed triangle, and solid line as representations of different types of bonds in a three-dimensional structure, explaining their significance in depicting the geometry of the ion.
  • Another participant questions whether the solid triangle indicates a repulsion effect, to which a response clarifies that it is merely a representation technique and that all P-O bonds should be considered equivalent.
  • Participants discuss the implications of single and double bonds within the same chemical formula, noting that in reality, all P-O bonds should be equivalent.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the interpretation of bond representations and their implications for understanding the structure of the phosphate ion. There is no consensus on the nuances of bond equivalency and the significance of bond types in this context.

Contextual Notes

Some statements reflect assumptions about bond equivalency and the limitations of two-dimensional representations of three-dimensional structures. The discussion does not resolve these complexities.

Robotesco
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https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/70/Phosphat-Ion.svg
This image is a depiction for the chemical formula of A phosphate PO4^3−
I understand the ^3- represents the the Oxygen atoms.

I was wondering what exactly does it mean; I would assume it means the atom has a negative charge.

What do the symbols connecting the O atoms to the Phosphate represent? The = symbol, the solid and striped triangle, and the single line.
 
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Robotesco said:
^3- represents the the Oxygen atoms.
No. "-3" or "3-" indicates that the polyatomic ion, comprised of one phosphorus atom and four oxygen atoms has a charge of -3.
 
Bystander said:
No. "-3" or "3-" indicates that the polyatomic ion, comprised of one phosphorus atom and four oxygen atoms has a charge of -3.
You don't understand what the symbols connecting the oxygen atoms to the phosphate atoms?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/70/Phosphat-Ion.svg
 
You see the red X on the attached image? It means it didn't come through for anyone on the forum to examine. I can guess, but that's not instructive.
 
A 3-D representation, the solid triangle representing a bond emerging from the plane of the paper from phosphorus to oxygen, the dashed triangle a bond "into" the paper to another oxygen, the solid line a "single" bond in the plane of the paper, and the double line a double bond in the plane of the paper. It's easier to portray the structure of the ion this way than with a tetrahedron of four 5/4 bonds.
 
Capture.PNG
 
Bystander said:
A 3-D representation, the solid triangle representing a bond emerging from the plane of the paper from phosphorus to oxygen, the dashed triangle a bond "into" the paper to another oxygen, the solid line a "single" bond in the plane of the paper, and the double line a double bond in the plane of the paper. It's easier to portray the structure of the ion this way than with a tetrahedron of four 5/4 bonds.

I assumed they represented different dimensions of its position bonded to the phosphate. When you say the solid triangle represents the bond emerging from the plane of the paper are you saying the element is being repelled by the phosphate but still bonded? Whats the difference between a single bond and a double bond in the same chemical formula?
 
Robotesco said:
When you say the solid triangle represents the bond emerging from the plane of the paper are you saying the element is being repelled by the phosphate but still bonded?
There is no repelling. It is only to get a 2D representation of a 3D structure, a triangular pyramid in this case. All three P-O- bonds are to be taken as equivalent.

Robotesco said:
Whats the difference between a single bond and a double bond in the same chemical formula?
In reality, all P-O bonds should be equivalent. You will get http://www.chem.ucla.edu/harding/tutorials/resonance/draw_res_str.html
 
  • #10
It's bonds pointing towards or away from you. It matters for stereochemistry.as a tetrahedral doesn't fit in a plane.
 

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