News Understanding the Evacuation of Gaza Strip: An In-Depth Discussion

[TRCSF]

These people are not leaving their homes willingly. I suppose you view tearing tens of thousands of peaceful residents from their homes and crops for the past 30 years as ungenerous. Had Israel done this to Palestinians, it would have been termed "ethnic cleansing".

More like 8,000 people, most of whom are leaving peacefully. The ones creating the problems are rightwing nationalist agitators that are busing in.

As for Israel displacing Palestinians, I was under the impression that's what this whole thing started with.

 

[Yonoz]

Not at the expense of people already living there, whether they constituted a "state" or not. What Jews suffered during Holocaust, is in this context IRRELEVANT.

No one claimed it to be at their expense. The Jewish settlement in Palestine was peaceful and lands were bought legally from their owners.
I do think the holocaust is relevant [EDIT] in the context of its right of existence [/EDIT] because it proved to Jews and the world there is a need for a Jewish State. It is however irrelevant in the [EDIT] context [/EDIT] of its location.

A much better proposal would have been to clear out prime regions in Germany to constitute a Jewish state, for example by expelling all Bavarians from their county.

There was already Jewish settlement in Palestine. I do not think ethnic cleansing is a solution to genocide. Furthermore, many German Jews are even today unwilling to set foot on German soil or speak a word of German.

 

[arildno]

Yeah, very peaceful!
And Moshe Dayan was a dove who never led massacres on civilian populations.
Please, spare me..

 

[Wardw]

Ok let's throw this into the ring and see who bites.
Firstly, I am not anti semetic, let's get that clear. But after following this issue since the late 70's, I have come to the conclusion that perhaps Israel should never have been allowed to come into existence. Truman was not a great supporter. Who was pushing the collective guilt issue. Was Europe happy just to finally be able to" get rid of" them once and for all. The reality is that Jews were not well liked in Europe...why? I'm too young to know.
If the claim that Israel was given by god is the only proof of claim, then we are all lost.
Even most religons and theologians now accept the first testament as a "cute" little series of myths and nothing more.
If we all started staking claim using similar criteria we would all wind up back in the trees.
The high level of US and British financial support for Israel seems to me somewhat unatural, as is the great Israeli lie about nuclear technology.
Why why why...Oil Oil Oil...Control Control Control.

 

[Yonoz]

More like 8,000 people, most of whom are leaving peacefully.

Those leaving peacefully are doing so under protest. They are not leaving willingly. Maybe the lack of violence confuses you - not everyone in the Middle East is a savage.

As for Israel displacing Palestinians, I was under the impression that's what this whole thing started with.

How cynical, and still untrue.

 

[arildno]

There was already Jewish settlement in Palestine. I do not think ethnic cleansing is a solution to genocide. Furthermore, many German Jews are even today unwilling to set foot on German soil or speak a word of German.

I said expelled, not cleansed.
The Jews did NOT have any sort of right to claim a land already inhabited by other persons, but the German nation&population majority had certainly acted in such an atrocious manner towards the Jews that they deserved to be PUNISHED for their barbarity. They were not, in my opinion. And that is a great shame.

 

[TRCSF]

How cynical, and still untrue.

Yeah, well, the UN doesn't think so.

 

[Yonoz]

But after following this issue since the late 70's, I have come to the conclusion that perhaps Israel should never have been allowed to come into existence.

This very statement provides enough reason for me. The fact that even today some view it as illegitimate for Israel to exist is the best case for its support.

Truman was not a great supporter.

So what?

Who was pushing the collective guilt issue.

I guess it was all those Jews who were persecuted over the course of the European history.

Was Europe happy just to finally be able to" get rid of" them once and for all. The reality is that Jews were not well liked in Europe...why? I'm too young to know.

Maybe it's time you started finding out.

If the claim that Israel was given by god is the only proof of claim, then we are all lost.
Even most religons and theologians now accept the first testament as a "cute" little series of myths and nothing more.
If we all started staking claim using similar criteria we would all wind up back in the trees.

Israel was established by secular Jews, nothing to do with religion. Fact is, it was a forsaken piece of land in a decaying empire when the first settlers came there.

The high level of US and British financial support for Israel seems to me somewhat unatural, as is the great Israeli lie about nuclear technology.

What do you mean by "unnatural"? Do you mean the US and UK, often attacked in this forum for supporting totalitarian regimes, are wrong to support the only democracy in the Middle East?

Why why why...Oil Oil Oil...Control Control Control.

That's a very nice collection of words, but that is all it is really. The support of Israel is costing the US a lot more than it is gaining in the matter of oil and the all other buzzwords thrown around in these arguments. In case you didn't know: Israel is the only country in the Middle East that produces no oil. Not a single barrel. It did once, but it gave its only oil wells - an unimginably strategically valuable resource - to Egypt, in exchange for peace - nothing else. Are you still surprised at the US and British support of Israel?

 

[Yonoz]

Yeah, well, the UN doesn't think so.

Why don't you start being a little more specific?

 

[TRCSF]

Why don't you start being a little more specific?

I'm saying that the UN considers the Israeli settlements to be an affront to the peace process and violation of international law.

 

[TRCSF]

That's a very nice collection of words, but that is all it is really. The support of Israel is costing the US a lot more than it is gaining in the matter of oil and the all other buzzwords thrown around in these arguments. In case you didn't know: Israel is the only country in the Middle East that produces no oil. Not a single barrel. It did once, but it gave its only oil wells - an unimginably strategically valuable resource - to Egypt, in exchange for peace - nothing else. Are you still surprised at the US and British support of Israel?

So you're saying that the U.S. is supporting Israel at great expense for purely humanitarian purposes?

 

[Yonoz]

I said expelled, not cleansed.

Expelling an ethnic group from their land to make room for another ethnic group is ethnic cleansing.

The Jews did NOT have any sort of right to claim a land already inhabited by other persons,

That land was very sparsely inhabited, and it is unjust to disallow someone to purchase and settle upon a piece of land simply because they're Jewish. No Jews came and kicked out local inhabitants - they always settled on bought or unclaimed land and never acted violently against anyone until they were forced to defend.

but the German nation&population majority had certainly acted in such an atrocious manner towards the Jews that they deserved to be PUNISHED for their barbarity. They were not, in my opinion. And that is a great shame.

You cannot punish an entire group for the actions of its individuals, even though I agree they are guilty as a population as well as individually. It is collective punishment and forbidden by the Geneva Convention.

 

[Wardw]

Israel was established by secular Jews, nothing to do with religion. Fact is, it was a forsaken piece of land in a decaying empire when the first settlers came there.

Well, if it was an empire, decaying or not, does that not mean that it belonged to someone else??

 

[Yonoz]

As for Israel displacing Palestinians, I was under the impression that's what this whole thing started with.

I'm saying that the UN considers the Israeli settlements to be an affront to the peace process and violation of international law.

Those are two very different statements. You should phrase your statements a little more accurately.

 

[Wardw]

I guess it was all those Jews who were persecuted over the course of the European history.

So you are saying that all persecuted peoples over the course of history have a "god given" right to stake a claim wherever they wish.
Where do I fill in the forms.

 

[Yonoz]

So you're saying that the U.S. is supporting Israel at great expense for purely humanitarian purposes?

No, I'm rebutting Wardw's partially constructed, overly suggestive claim that the US and UK support Israel to control oil in some way.

Why why why...Oil Oil Oil...Control Control Control.

 

[Yonoz]

Well, if it was an empire, decaying or not, does that not mean that it belonged to someone else??

Are you saying Israel belongs to Turkey?

 

[Wardw]

This very statement provides enough reason for me. The fact that even today some view it as illegitimate for Israel to exist is the best case for its support.

And I did not say I viewed it as illegitimate to exist. It exists and will continue to do so. I said that I doubted that it should heve been allowed to come into existence.

 

[arildno]

That land was very sparsely inhabited, and it is unjust to disallow someone to purchase and settle upon a piece of land simply because they're Jewish. No Jews came and kicked out local inhabitants - they always settled on bought or unclaimed land and never acted violently against anyone until they were forced to defend.
.

This is a bunch of lies.

 

[Lisa!]

I said expelled, not cleansed.
The Jews did NOT have any sort of right to claim a land already inhabited by other persons, but the German nation&population majority had certainly acted in such an atrocious manner towards the Jews that they deserved to be PUNISHED for their barbarity. They were not, in my opinion. And that is a great shame.

I agree with you.I heard and read lots of stories about how Hitler behaved towards Jews, but I can't see why Palestinians have to pay for what he did.

 

[Wardw]

That land was very sparsely inhabited, and it is unjust to disallow someone to purchase and settle upon a piece of land simply because they're Jewish. No Jews came and kicked out local inhabitants - they always settled on bought or unclaimed land and never acted violently against anyone until they were forced to defend.

Tell that to the refugees in camps scattered around neighbouring countries that will never be allowed back into the land in which they were born.

 

[Yonoz]

So you are saying that all persecuted peoples over the course of history have a "god given" right to stake a claim wherever they wish.

No. You asked (I assume, you didn't end the sentence with a question mark but it's contructed like a question) "Who was pushing the collective guilt", as if some party pushed the UN General Assembly to approve the partition of Palestine into Jewish and Arab states. Again, you seem to fit god into it, for whatever reason.
Israel is the only Jewish State. There was no Jewish state at the time of the partition. I do believe that persecuted ethnic groups should have their own states, the location of which is a separate matter.
You also seem to ignore my explanations as to the geographical location of this state - it is very frustrating to go over the same reasoning several times. If you wish to discuss this matter I suggest you keep up with my argument.

Where do I fill in the forms.

It's most humiliating to conduct a discussion while my national (and personal) tragedies are being mocked.

 

[Yonoz]

And I did not say I viewed it as illegitimate to exist. It exists and will continue to do so. I said that I doubted that it should heve been allowed to come into existence.

Those are one and the same.

 

[Wardw]

Are you saying Israel belongs to Turkey?

No, most of it belongs to Israel now. I said that it belongED (past tense) to someone else at the time it was "settled". Something that you acknowledged in an earlier post

 

[Yonoz]

I heard and read lots of stories about how Hitler behaved towards Jews, but I can't see why Palestinians have to pay for what he did.

They shouldn't, and no one ever asked them to.

 

[Yonoz]

No, most of it belongs to Israel now. I said that it belongED (past tense) to someone else at the time it was "settled". Something that you acknowledged in an earlier post

It was part of the Ottoman Empire - that does not imply anything about the ownership of the land there. Are all lands in Brasil owned by the Brasilian government?
This discussion is predictably going in the direction of Israel's right of existence. Anyone interested in going back to the original topic?

 

[Wardw]

Are all lands in Brasil owned by the Brasilian government?

Who knows. I'm not Brasilian

 

[Burnsys]

Who knows. I'm not Brasilian

Actualy a large part of the brazilian rain forest is owner now by Gerogia Pacific, Texaco ,Unocal ,and another multinational corporations.

 

[jaap de vries]

The palestinian issue is ultimately responsible for half the problems in the world today, including 9-11. No pain no gain. It is good to see the Israeli side give in a little and let's hope that this will be the beginning of a process in which both sides will be willing to sacrifice some for the greater good. Solving the palestinian issue is far more important than Iraq!

 

[arildno]

You cannot punish an entire group for the actions of its individuals, even though I agree they are guilty as a population as well as individually. It is collective punishment and forbidden by the Geneva Convention.

Didn't the average German deserve to be punished for raising his kids to feel contempt for Jews and rejoice in that their Great Fuehrer was solving the problem for them?

By actively fostering anti-semitism within their own homes, neighboorhoods and workplaces, the overwhelming majority of german adults certainly deserved to be taught a lesson after WW2.
To be displaced from their homes and make them search for a new life elsewhere would have been a suitable punishment for them, in my opinion.