Understanding time invariant of EM

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of time invariance in electromagnetism, particularly as illustrated by the example of visibility between two individuals in a mirror. Participants explore the implications of this concept, questioning its meaning and relevance, while also considering various scenarios that challenge or complicate the idea.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the meaning of the statement about visibility in a mirror, suggesting that different sets of photons are involved in each person's view.
  • Another participant clarifies that time invariance in electromagnetism implies that if a solution to Maxwell's equations depends on time "t", then the solution with "-t" is also valid.
  • Some participants explain that the time-reversed path of light rays is permissible under the laws of physics, indicating a symmetry in the behavior of light.
  • One participant introduces examples where the initial statement may not hold true, such as when a person removes a blindfold or is hiding in a dark cupboard, suggesting that visibility can be affected by light conditions.
  • There is a discussion about the implications of light sources and visibility, particularly in scenarios where light is absorbed or insufficient for visibility.
  • Another participant humorously references personal experience with visibility in low-light conditions, suggesting that light can enter a space without allowing for reciprocal visibility.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the implications of time invariance and the relevance of the mirror example. There is no consensus on the scenarios presented, and the discussion remains unresolved regarding the complexities introduced by various conditions affecting visibility.

Contextual Notes

Participants explore the nuances of visibility and light behavior, highlighting assumptions about light sources and conditions that may affect the validity of the original statement. The discussion includes speculative scenarios that introduce uncertainty about the application of time invariance.

jdou86
Messages
34
Reaction score
1
on the conquering the physics gre book it says e.g. for time invariant "if you can see someones eyes in a mirror, they can see yours as well" so what the hell does that mean?

isnt person A sending photons to person B and person B sending different sets of photons to person A? how does that relate to time invariant of EM

<< Mentor Note -- profanity deleted from post >>
 
Last edited:
Physics news on Phys.org
Technically, the type of photons sent to one person's eyes are not sent by other persons, but by light sources, such as the Sun, or a bolt. Time invariance of electromagnetism means that if a solution of the Maxwell's equations is a function of "t", the same functional dependence but with "t" replaced by "-t" is also a solution of the same equations.
 
jdou86 said:
for time invariant "if you can see someones eyes in a mirror, they can see yours as well" what the **** does that mean?

It means that the time reverse of the path light rays take from them to you, i.e., the path light rays take from you to them, is also allowed by the laws of physics. If the laws governing light were not time reversal invariant, that would not be the case.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: jdou86
PeterDonis said:
It means that the time reverse of the path light rays take from them to you, i.e., the path light rays take from you to them, is also allowed by the laws of physics. If the laws governing light were not time reversal invariant, that would not be the case.
Thanks! that is a very cool answer!
 
jdou86 said:
on the conquering the physics gre book it says e.g. for time invariant "if you can see someones eyes in a mirror, they can see yours as well"
It might be fun to think of all the examples where this is not true.

For example, if you remove a blindfold, then you will almost immediately see someone at a distance. But they won't see your eyes for a tiny bit longer.

I'm not sure why the mirror is relevant either.

You could also be hiding in a dark cupboard, looking out through a keyhole. But perhaps that's getting too silly.
 
Keyhole I think is fine (both can see) but there is a delay since c =1
 
jdou86 said:
Keyhole I think is fine (both can see) but there is a delay since c =1
If there is no light source and all the photons entering the cupboard are absorbed.
 
PeroK said:
If there is no light source and all the photons entering the cupboard are absorbed.
Then the person in the darkness wouldn’t be able to see through it because there is no light
 
jdou86 said:
Then the person in the darkness wouldn’t be able to see through it because there is no light
You've obviously never played hide and seek! You can see out through a crack or hole, as light enters, but not enough light comes out for anyone to see you.
 
  • #10
PeroK said:
You've obviously never played hide and seek! You can see out through a crack or hole, as light enters, but not enough light comes out for anyone to see you.
places with more light have more interference you are not looking at the light from the hole but you also looking at light from the world bruh
 
  • #11
okay this is the end, i do not want to receive any more information from this post please.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
2K
  • · Replies 20 ·
Replies
20
Views
3K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 47 ·
2
Replies
47
Views
3K
  • · Replies 17 ·
Replies
17
Views
3K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K
  • · Replies 10 ·
Replies
10
Views
2K