Unfair Education System: Exam Results Don't Reflect Efforts

[Cyrus]

Anyway, an exam is not a complete task, so it doesn't make sense to compare this to designing 70% of a bridge correctly. You also aren't likely to be sat down and told to design a bridge in a couple of hour timeframe to then have the designs taken away from you and sent off to the manufacturer with no chance to consult any reference books, or other people, or have drafts etc etc..

What do you think happens in real world engineering? Project deadlines have to be met. In other words, you have to work, and work quickly much like an exam. (It's not 100% the same, but the point still stands).

 

[JaredJames]

What do you think happens in real world engineering? Project deadlines have to be met. In other words, you have to work, and work quickly much like an exam. (It's not 100% the same, but the point still stands).

Yes the point stands, but how often do you walk into an exam with materials to help you such as textbooks? I am yet to find a person who sits in an exam and (within rules) asks the question on PF. There is help available in the real world. In an exam there is not. I understand the whole deadline side of things, but assignments also have deadlines you have to work to.

 

[Cyrus]

Moonbear, you cannot compare an exam to an assignment. Any real world project is an assignment, not a closed book exam. No body knows everything. My lecturers keep on that they don't expect us to remember everything (wrt formulas and stuff) and so they provide tables of them in the exams. 70% in an exam simply means that person knew that much at that point without any external help, this not taking into account stress levels within the exam. Some people (me included) get extremely stressed/anxious going into exams and it does affect me performance wise, regardless of how well I know the subject. (not sure of this but how many companies shut you in a room with only a pen an paper and expect you to design a product for them without any outside referencing? I'm guessing none.)

Generally we get our exam timetable a month in advance but even so we know when the exams are coming. Regardless you should be working throughout.

I hope you don't get stressed when your boss say's he wants this done by FRIDAY, no excuses.

 

[Cyrus]

Yes the point stands, but how often do you walk into an exam with materials to help you such as textbooks? I am yet to find a person who sits in an exam and (within rules) asks the question on PF. There is help available in the real world. In an exam there is not. I understand the whole deadline side of things, but assignments also have deadlines you have to work to.

Every time I have an open book exam. My last class was like that, in fact all my graduate exams are like that. You need the book, and you still write write write as fast as you can. Otherwise it is take home and you have a few days and you work as fast as you can because you need ever day you get. (Hint hint: Just like a project the boss wants BY FRIDAY OR YOUR FIRED!

FYI: These professors are considered the best in their fields. I won't name any names, but you probably use their textbooks and know their names if you work in Aerospace.

 

[JaredJames]

Every time I have an open book exam. My last class was like that, in fact all my graduate exams are like that.

I don't get stressed with assignments, just exams, I don't know why (although my point below with open book exams probably is something to do with it). I spend ages learning and perfecting the work until I can do almost all questions I see, yet as soon as the exam starts I just panic, my biggest problem is I over-think things in exams far too much and end up second-guessing myself.

None of my exams are open book. Although that is something I disagree with, I think exams should be open book as that reflects more on your ability to use your own knowledge and materials correctly, as in real world (again, this view also relates to my problem above).

 

[Cyrus]

I don't get stressed with assignments, just exams, I really don't know why. I spend ages learning and perfecting the work until I can do almost all problems I see, yet as soon as the exam starts I just panic, my biggest problem is I over-think things far too much and end up second-guessing myself.

Then you don't know the fundamentals of what you are doing if you second guess yourself. If I ever doubt myself, I just revert back to fundamentals and then realize why the number seems off.

None of my exams are open book. Although that is something I disagree with, I think exams should be open book as that reflects more on your ability to use your own knowledge and materials correctly, as in real world (again, this view also relates to my problem above).

This statement is wrong. You just said yourself (In the real world you have access to your books). The exams I just told you that I have to take, are very much like a real world task.

 

[Hootenanny]

If you were to write an exam, what would you put on it? Would you pick the material that most people in practice will just look up as they work, or would you pick the content that anyone in the field should have a working knowledge of without having to consult a reference book every time they need to use it? Unless the professor is a complete hardnose, exams are usually written keeping in mind the material that they really feel a student needs to have mastered to be competent in that field.

I have to disagree with you there. I have personally sat examinations where before the exam, the lecturer has admitted that we will be expected to know material that he cannot remember, without reference to a text. One lecturer has gone on to admit that he believes that a particular exam should be an open-book exam, because of the vast amounts of material we were required to know. Perhaps the ethos is a little different in the US, but in the UK often-times the lecture's hands are tied by board, who dictate what is on the exam.

I have long held the belief that after first year, the assessments should be weighted more in favour of continuous assessment and project work. Such an arrangement would be more realistic and would be closer to what life in academia or industry is really like, rather than expecting students to regurgitate a semesters worth of work in a series of three-hour exams.

 

[Hootenanny]

I hope you don't get stressed when your boss say's he wants this done by FRIDAY, no excuses.

That is utter garbage Cyrus! In no way whatsoever is working to a tight deadline like sitting a closed book examination.

 

[Cyrus]

That is utter garbage Cyrus! In no way whatsoever is working to a tight deadline like sitting a closed book examination.

You misread what I wrote Hoot.

 

[JaredJames]

This statement is wrong. You just said yourself (In the real world you have access to your books). The exams I just told you that I have to take, are very much like a real world task.

I DON'T in my exams, so how is my statement wrong? If I don't have books in my exams, it is not like a real world situation.

 

[Cyrus]

I DON'T in my exams, so how is my statement wrong? If I don't have books in my exams, it is not like a real world situation.

...I wasn't talking about your exams.

 

[JaredJames]

...I wasn't talking about your exams.

Then where? I said real world is like assignments, and that you have materials in both. Please point out what you were talking about.

 

[Hootenanny]

You misread what I wrote Hoot.

Indeed I did, I apologise.

 

[JaredJames]

"None of my exams are open book. Although that is something I disagree with, I think exams should be open book as that reflects more on your ability to use your own knowledge and materials correctly, as in real world (again, this view also relates to my problem above)." That was my statement. it says:
1. I don't have books in my exams
2. I think exams should be open book as that let's you use your knowledge alongside the materials like in the real world.
What is wrong there?

 

[Cyrus]

Then where? I said real world is like assignments, and that you have materials in both. Please point out what you were talking about.

You said:

. Although that is something I disagree with, I think exams should be open book as that reflects more on your ability to use your own knowledge and materials correctly, as in real world (again, this view also relates to my problem above).

Dammit, now I misread you! I thought you said exams shouldn't be open book.

Forget what I said earlier.

 

[JaredJames]

You said:
Dammit, now I misread you! I thought you said exams shouldn't be open book.
Forget what I said earlier.

Already done, fair enough.

Out of curiosity, do you prefer open or closed book? I mean, yeah closed book are a good judgement of what a person has learnt, but to me it doesn't reflect real life. What type of questions do you get? Mine are usually example based on a real life situation (another reason they should be open book). I suppose it comes down to what you want to test.

 

[Cyrus]

Already done, fair enough.

Out of curiosity, do you prefer open or closed book? I mean, yeah closed book are a good judgement of what a person has learnt, but to me it doesn't reflect real life. What type of questions do you get? Mine are usually example based on a real life situation (another reason they should be open book). I suppose it comes down to what you want to test.

It depends on the level of the class. For junior/senior/graduate level work, I've mostly had open book or open note exams. The reason is that you simply don't have time to read the book during the exam. It's only useful for finding the equations and tables in the back. Even then, you're better off putting the major formulas on a sheet and using that sheet instead of the book because flipping pages for each equation takes time.

For freshman/sophomore courses the equations are so basic it makes more sense to have them memorize it.

 

[JaredJames]

It depends on the level of the class. For junior/senior/graduate level work, I've mostly had open book or open note exams. The reason is that you simply don't have time to read the book during the exam. It's only useful for finding the equations and tables in the back. Even then, you're better off putting the major formulas on a sheet and using that sheet instead of the book because flipping pages for each equation takes time.

For freshman/sophomore courses the equations are so basic it makes more sense to have them memorize it.

Of course, I understand the whole memorizing of basic equations, but at the same time I have 4 classes running together and so the quantity mounts quickly. Escpecially as you progress through the years, the amount of equations alongside the other materials puts far too much strain on you when it comes to remembering it.

 

[Cyrus]

Of course, I understand the whole memorizing of basic equations, but at the same time I have 4 classes running together and so the quantity mounts quickly. Escpecially as you progress through the years, the amount of equations alongside the other materials puts far too much strain on you when it comes to remembering it.

I don't know what courses you're taking, but 4 sophomore courses is cake compared to what your junior/senior courses will be. Welcome to engineering.

 

[JaredJames]

I don't know what courses you're taking, but 4 sophomore courses is cake compared to what your junior/senior courses will be. Welcome to engineering.

Sophomore? not sure what that is, as far as I am aware is I am an undergraduate and after completion I will be a graduate. I will gain a Bachelors of Engineering Honours Degree in Aerospace Engineering. I am in University. A second year, out of 3 (well 4 because of my one year placement). After this all I could do is a PhD. To me (and the UK) a course is what you study, so in my case, aerospace engineering, I then have various subject classes (thermodynamics and fluid mechanics, aerodynamic and structural dynamics etc.). These consume 30 hours a week in lectures and I am expected to do 100 hours per subject outside this. Aside from continuing another year for masters and then PhD there is no more I can do.

When you said 4 courses I initially thought you meant 4 degrees. Gave me a scare.

Also, I think the difference between the two education systems is a problem here when discussing. We have secondary school until 16, sixth form until 19, university 21(ish). I don't know what level of material they teach at each level of schooling where you are, as I expect you don't at mine. The only common thing we could agree on is that degree work is fairly similar. (Although the number of foreign students who come to the UK for degrees is quite high, so the standards here must be quite good, again not sure whether this is a factor where you are.) My course alone has about 10% American and Canadian students.

 

[cristo]

What do you think happens in real world engineering? Project deadlines have to be met. In other words, you have to work, and work quickly much like an exam. (It's not 100% the same, but the point still stands).

Sorry, but it's nothing like the same! Note that we're talking about undergraduate exams here, and not the exams that you're taking in graduate level courses. You admitted yourself in another thread that you were doing some modelling and to find out how the thing works you call up the designer, or look in the manual. You can't do this in an exam! Furthermore, whilst you may mock the notion of stress, exams are far more stressful than other deadlines, purely because there is absolutely no going back: you make a mistake in the three hours you're in the exam room, and you fail.

Sophomore? not sure what that is, as far as I am aware is I am an undergraduate and after completion I will be a graduate.

Sophomore is what the US call their second year of university. Essentially, freshman (first year) and sophomore are pretty much the same as our first year here in the UK.

 

[rootX]

Furthermore, whilst you may mock the notion of stress, exams are far more stressful than other deadlines, purely because .

You are provided full 4 months of training with full help. Your classmates also have same work as you so you basically get 24 hours support from others. So, if doing good on exams is your priority (that is you don't have more important responsibilities) then I don't see how exams are hard or stressful relative to real world work where you are not provided that much help. After those 4 months and abundant help in that time, why it should even be hard?

there is absolutely no going back: you make a mistake in the three hours you're in the exam room, and you fail

You get fired at job.

 

[Cyrus]

Sorry, but it's nothing like the same! Note that we're talking about undergraduate exams here, and not the exams that you're taking in graduate level courses. You admitted yourself in another thread that you were doing some modelling and to find out how the thing works you call up the designer, or look in the manual. You can't do this in an exam! Furthermore, whilst you may mock the notion of stress, exams are far more stressful than other deadlines, purely because there is absolutely no going back: you make a mistake in the three hours you're in the exam room, and you fail.

Of course you can't talk to others during the exam to get information, but that wasn't the point I was making. The point was that I know where to go to get the information. If the teacher gives you a practice exam, you should know where to go to do well on the exam. Heck, the teacher even did the leg work for you by giving you the exam! (You don't get this in the real world, you have to find it on your own!)

As for the stress, I wasn't mocking it. I don't know how I gave off that impression - it wasn't my intention. I'll give you an example. I was doing a wind tunnel test. We needed to do something the next day and I had to spend the entire night running through a derivation and calculation to make sure the spring would work for the test. If it didn't it would break the model, and damage the wind tunnel and costs thousands of dollars and end our testing. I had ONE SHOT to get it right. I did an 11 page derivation with computer simulation to verify its accuracy. Is that not 10x more 'stressful' than an exam?

Time is money, and there are no second chances. Our tests were running $900/hr.

There are times when you absolutely must work fast and get an answer and be 100% right, not 70%, not 80%, not 90%. 100%.

Either it works or you fail. Things don't work 70% well.

 

[cristo]

You get fired at job.

You don't get fired for making one mistake, otherwise there would be a lot of out of work engineers walking around with nothing to do!

Of course you can't talk to others during the exam to get information, but that wasn't the point I was making. The point was that I know where to go to get the information.

You know with hindsight where to get the information; that is, you either think about a problem, then go and look it up in a book (or phone calls etc..), or while you're doing something and get stuck, you then turn to your computer program, or your book for help. But, unlike in an exam, you don't know what information to fill your head with before you know exactly what problem you'll be tackling!

If the teacher gives you a practice exam, you should know where to go to do well on the exam. Heck, the teacher even did the leg work for you by giving you the exam! (You don't get this in the real world, you have to find it on your own!)

It wasn't a practice exam, he presumably looked up the previous years' exam papers (which are available at all universities). The thing he was annoyed about what that some students memorised the answers to the past two years' exams, whereas he at least tried to study, not only the last 5 years' exams, but also the course material. Clearly, any idiot can memorise solutions and, given the exam is sufficiently similar to the one you've memorised the solutions for, will score highly.

This is why he is claiming the situation is unfair, and I agree, it is unfair for an exam to be sufficiently similar to the previous year's that memorising solutions will give a chance of getting 90% in the exam. That's not testing anything other than memory. I could get 90%+ in any exam if you give me the solutions to look over for a day before-hand!

 

[Cyrus]

You don't get fired for making one mistake, otherwise there would be a lot of out of work engineers walking around with nothing to do!

We have a staff member that's been working here for the past 20+ years. His title is "Research Scientist", but he has a PhD and has worked in the helicopter industry for many years. He always gives very good advice when you go to his office and talk with him on a range of issues. One of the best things he told me was this: "When you are a working engineer and you screw up, you cost the company money. If you screw up once, they are not going to trust you to make a decision a second time because you're mistake will cost the company money. If every time they ask you to calculate something, your numbers always come out wrong, they are going to show you the door. This is absolutely true.

You know with hindsight where to get the information; that is, you either think about a problem, then go and look it up in a book (or phone calls etc..), or while you're doing something and get stuck, you then turn to your computer program, or your book for help. But, unlike in an exam, you don't know what information to fill your head with before you know exactly what problem you'll be tackling!

I don't know what you mean by "hindsight"? I'm not doing anything with hindsight. I don't understand what you wrote in bold, as I never said anything of the sort (you just made that part up).

Let me make this clear. We had a problem. I had 24 hours to solve the problem. I didn't "know what information to fill my head with". I don't even know what this statement is supposed to mean, really...

It wasn't a practice exam, he presumably looked up the previous years' exam papers (which are available at all universities).

In the UK, perhaps. Here, no.

The thing he was annoyed about what that some students memorised the answers to the past two years' exams, whereas he at least tried to study, not only the last 5 years' exams, but also the course material. Clearly, any idiot can memorise solutions and, given the exam is sufficiently similar to the one you've memorised the solutions for, will score highly.

It's a valid point, but it's also an irrelevant point. The OP studied in a bad way. What others do isn't his problem. If the think the can skate by, then they will learn the hard way.

This is why he is claiming the situation is unfair, and I agree, it is unfair for an exam to be sufficiently similar to the previous year's that memorising solutions will give a chance of getting 90% in the exam. That's not testing anything other than memory.

Again, why is this "unfair". He had the same "fairness" as they did, he just didn't use it to his advantage. That's his fault, and a problem with his professors exams.

 

[xxChrisxx]

I agree with Cyrus (not everything he's said but)...

The simple answer to this is tough ****, as important as it is to know and understand the material. Passing the exam is just as important. The exam was not 'unfair' in any way as everyone sat the same exam. They had the same resources and information you did, they just chose to give more credence to doing past paper questions.

What you did was remarkably poor technique, yes you may have spent the revision time learning pages of material, but in the end you didnt really focus on what was important. Which was practising every past paper question.

As a note, everyone should know the material before they even remotely get to a revision/study/exam week. That time should be used for refreshing and applying the knowledge to answering exam questions.

Learn from it and next time do the past papers. Also i'd be very very surprised if they memorised the answers, as a general policy Universities do not publish worked solutions to exam questions (you are lucky if you even get numerical solutions). I have never heard of anywhere that does release answers (becuase they are smart enough to realize that it would be open to abuse), although I do suppose it could happen.

 

[cristo]

I don't know what you mean by "hindsight"?

You don't know what hindsight means?

I'm not doing anything with hindsight. I don't understand what you wrote in bold, as I never said anything of the sort (you just made that part up).

Any sources you go digging in after you've been given the problem to work on is done with hindsight when compared to doing an exam where you don't know what problem you are going to be asked. My point is that it is much easier to know what information you will need when you know what you have to solve. Or, to put it another way, it doesn't matter one bit if you know where to look for information when you are stuck in an exam room without the said resources!

In the UK, perhaps. Here, no.

The OP isn't in the US, as he has said several times. Given that he says he studied 5 past exam papers, it is safe to assume that, at least for this course, the situation in NZ is the same as the UK. What happens in the US is irrelevant.

Again, why is this "unfair". He had the same "fairness" as they did, he just didn't use it to his advantage. That's his fault, and a problem with his professors exams.

It's not unfair in the sense that he was in a worse position than his peers, but an exam which is simply the same as the last year with different numbers is not representative of the students' knowledge of the subject (since, as I said, anyone can simply memorise the solutions). In this sense, it is an unfair assessment of the subject.Anyway, this discussion is pretty pointless now, since we're never going to agree!

 

[cristo]

I have never heard of anywhere that does release answers (becuase they are smart enough to realize that it would be open to abuse), although I do suppose it could happen.

I know of loads of courses where the past exam solutions were available. In fact, at my undergrad university there was a whole section of the library full of solutions to previous exam papers. Even if they're not, though, you can go to the lecturer during their office hour and discuss questions from previous exam papers, from which you can construct questions.

 

[Cyrus]

You don't know what hindsight means?

I know what the word means, you plonker (that's a British term I just learned! ). I meant I didn't know what you meant by it's context.

Any sources you go digging in after you've been given the problem to work on is done with hindsight when compared to doing an exam where you don't know what problem you are going to be asked.

Ok, but you know the problems are coming from the book in the course...so...??

My point is that it is much easier to know what information you will need when you know what you have to solve. Or, to put it another way, it doesn't matter one bit if you know where to look for information when you are stuck in an exam room without the said resources!

Again, you don't think the problems on the exam might come from, ....his book? (or close to it).

It's not unfair in the sense that he was in a worse position than his peers, but an exam which is simply the same as the last year with different numbers is not representative of the students' knowledge of the subject (since, as I said, anyone can simply memorise the solutions). In this sense, it is an unfair assessment of the subject.

Well, that's a problem with his school or instructors ability to make exams. That does not excuse his performance on the exam given the resources available.

 

[xxChrisxx]

I know of loads of courses where the past exam solutions were available. In fact, at my undergrad university there was a whole section of the library full of solutions to previous exam papers. Even if they're not, though, you can go to the lecturer during their office hour and discuss questions from previous exam papers, from which you can construct questions.

Hmm, I'm surprised at that as its very explotable.

As a policy of my undergrad uni worked solutions were not allowed to be given to students but numerical solulutions were. You could always see the lecturer and they'd work you through to the solution, generally provided you had attempted it yourself.

 

[cristo]

I know what the word means, you plonker

Haha; see aren't British insults polite!

Ok, but you know the problems are coming from the book in the course...so...??

But.. you don't know where in the book (hence the hindsight comment). Thus, the difference essentially boils down to an exam, where you have to learn the contents of the book so you can use some of its information, or a real life problem where you know that there exists a book with the information in it, but don't have to remember the information. That is, on the one hand you're required to carry the book's information in your head, but on the other you just have to carry the book's index page in your head. I can't quite remember what we're arguing about, but I think that makes my point clear

 

[Moonbear]

I can't quite remember what we're arguing about, but I think that makes my point clear

I think we should just end there.

 

[cristo]

I think we should just end there.

Yeah, probably best. I actually lost my train of thought when writing that (It's not even that late either!)

 

[Cyrus]

Im glad we agree (WITH ME).

 

[cristo]

Im glad we agree (WITH ME).

Hmm.. last time I checked there was only one side capable of wiping the others existence here at a touch of a button

 

[Cyrus]

By locking this thread you accept my argument.

Cyrus: 1
Plonker: 0

 

[JaredJames]

Given I don't accept your argument and have no say in the locking of the thread. I call Cyrus 0. Plonkers (why I use that term for myself, heh, I like the term so why not) 0.

Noone is going to agree here. Just leave it be, so we can all leave with the feeling we've won.

 

[xxChrisxx]

hmm.. Last time i checked there was only one side capable of wiping the others existence here at a touch of a button

.ZE PuNISHMENT!

 

[coverme]

Albert Eeinstine told, Creaativity is important than Knowledge.

 

[coverme]

Here those who have brought higher grades in their exam have declined OP, and the average graders have either became neutral or favoured OP
The world is just like this we often favour the people which are alike us

 

[JaredJames]

Here those who have brought higher grades in their exam have declined OP, and the average graders have either became neutral or favoured OP
The world is just like this we often favour the people which are alike us

Sorry how do you know our grades? My grades are average on the basis that is what they come out as. I get B's in some and A's in others with one or two C's. That is a fairly average set coming to an overall B. However in terms of each subject most are pretty good.

I don't see anyone here posting their grades or much about them. Do not make such a statement.

 

[Hootenanny]

Albert Eeinstine told, Creaativity is important than Knowledge.

I'm guessing Einstein wasn't preparing for an undergraduate exam when he said that ...

 

[coverme]

I think we also have to think about the test (Is it of quality) . In my country the exam are cannot determine the skill, it determine the KNowledge only,I think if I could provide the model question(In micrrosoft document)if that is allowed
I am in Grade 12