News US Presidential Primaries, 2008

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The discussion centers on tracking the Democratic and Republican primary results while participants make predictions leading up to the Iowa Caucus. The Democratic race is tight among Obama, Clinton, and Edwards, with polls showing fluctuating leads. Among Republicans, Huckabee's rise has stalled, resulting in a statistical tie with Romney. Participants are encouraged to predict outcomes for both parties, with a scoring system for correct predictions. The conversation also touches on the candidates' public personas, with some expressing dissatisfaction with their responses to personal indulgences, and highlighting the potential impact of independent voters on the Democratic side. As the Iowa Caucus approaches, predictions are made, with many favoring Obama for the Democrats and Huckabee for the Republicans. The discussion reflects a mix of excitement and skepticism about the candidates and the electoral process, emphasizing the importance of upcoming primaries in shaping the nomination landscape.

Who will be the eventual nominee from each party?


  • Total voters
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  • Poll closed .
  • #651
Math Jeans said:
I'm still against Clinton even though she apparently eats hot peppers.

Must admit being a liberal, which tends to be far more common over here, I tend to go with Obama for pragmatic reasons. The fact that Republicans consider Clinton to be the antichrist, and even some democrats shy away from her. :wink:

Although I can see where here political experience might appeal.

Ivan Seeking said:
Regarding McCain and his meeting with Bush today: Honestly, if McCain made every effort to distance himself from Bush, under the right circumstances I could vote for him. But when I hear of his great affection for Bush, and when he refuses to denounce religious zealots, I lose nearly all respect for him. He may think he's a maverick, but he looks an awful lot like a Bush to me.

I will always respect him for standing up against the use of torture. He gets an A+ for that one!

Well I'm not an expert, far from it, but do you think that might not be more pragmatism, not being willing to alienate core right wing Christian voters, than any real belief in their issues?

lisab said:
Wow - play with this calculator for a while. I can't see how Clinton can overtake Obama, realistically.

http://www.slate.com/features/delegatecounter/

Tried putting everything up to 60% Clinton and a couple of 70%. Is that accurate? Well it looks a bit of a foregone conclusion then. Can't see that happening.
 
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  • #652
Clinton? Obama? Who Won Texas?
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=87961802
Obama Ahead in Texas Caucuses
Hillary Clinton claimed victory in Texas, after winning the state's primary Tuesday. But more than 1 million Democrats showed up at caucuses that followed the primary, and the results are showing Barack Obama with a lead. If the numbers stand, he could come out ahead by just three delegates.

Clinton won the primary with 51 percent of the popular vote to Obama's 47 percent, according to the Associated Press. Those results earned her 65 delegates to Obama's 61 delegates.

But allocating delegates in the Lone Star State takes a "Texas two-step." After the polls closed, more than 1 million Texans also attended caucuses, the results of which determine how about one-third of the state's delegates get awarded.

The state Democratic Party estimates that Obama will come out ahead: 37 pledged delegated to Clinton's 30 delegates. But the official tally of the Texas caucus won't be ready for months.

Now John McCain just needs to sit back and let Obama and Clinton beat each other up.

I'm disappointed in attack adds and negative campaigning because they don't offer insight into how the attacking candidate will address the significant problems facing the US.


Presidential Race Focuses on Wyoming Caucuses
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=87974950
 
  • #653
Astronuc said:
Now John McCain just needs to sit back and let Obama and Clinton beat each other up.
Sounds like a plan. The electorate now has three ways to vote: racist, misogynist, and both.
 
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  • #654
Wyoming caucus

Dem: Obama
 
  • #655
Obaming.

I think that now, more than any time so far, Obama should keep his gloves on, and stay above the fray that Clinton is desperate to rope him into.
 
  • #656
Clinton, Obama to Face Off in Wyoming
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=88006078

Clinton won victories Tuesday in primaries in Texas, Ohio and Rhode Island, reviving her candidacy. But Obama has prevailed in 12 of the 15 caucuses, which rely on greater campaign organization and voter commitment than primaries. A winner has not been declared in Texas' caucuses; the state held both last Tuesday.
Although - I have heard that Obama won the Texas caucus.


I'll go with Obama to win the Wyoming Caucus.


I hope that Clinton and Obama put a halt to the negative campaigning and sniping. They need to discuss the issues.
 
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  • #657
Astronuc said:
Clinton, Obama to Face Off in Wyoming
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=88006078

Although - I have heard that Obama won the Texas caucus.


I'll go with Obama to win the Wyoming Caucus.


I hope that Clinton and Obama put a halt to the negative campaigning and sniping. They need to discuss the issues.

Some of the sniping is annoying.

I'd be interested in hearing explanations from both about their eperience levels. That's a valid topic to ask of either candidate.

I have a hard time seeing how Clinton gets credit for her husband's experience - especially if she's taking credit for the positive things he did while being able to claim she wasn't involved in the negative things he did (well, I imagine she wasn't involved in at least a few of the negative things he did). Or is she claiming this will actually be a third term for Bill Clinton in practice, if not in name.

Obama's lack of experience is pretty clear cut. It might not be a deal killer, but it's certainly worth hearing how he addresses it.

Silly point since they're just commercials, but how many times do those phones have to ring before they go to voice mail?
 
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  • #658
BobG said:
I'd be interested in hearing explanations from both about their eperience levels. That's a valid topic to ask of either candidate.
I seemed to have missed any discussion of experience in the debates.

I have a hard time seeing how Clinton gets credit for her husband's experience - especially if she's taking credit for the positive things he did while being able to claim she wasn't involved in the negative things he did (well, I imagine she wasn't involved in at least a few of the negative things he did). Or is she claiming this will actually be a third term for Bill Clinton in practice, if not in name.
Clinton had some stupid commercial about the Whitehouse Phone ringing at 3 a.m. Who would you rather have answer it? :rolleyes: She's no more prepared than Obama or McCain, and I bet neither of them is prepared either.

I do have to wonder how many of the former Clinton administration hope to return. I look at Warren Christopher, Madelline Albright, and Richard Holbrooke :rolleyes: and wonder if Mrs. Clinton can do better. According to the Wikipedia article on Holbrooke "He was an advisor to the Presidential campaign of Sen. John Kerry (D-MA) in 2004. In 2006, Holbrooke joined the Presidential campaign of Sen. Hillary Clinton (D-NY) and has become a top foreign policy adviser; Holbrooke's name is often referred when speaking of Secretary of State in a Democratic administration and is likely to be a contender for the position." Ick. That right there should be a clear warning sign that Clinton II is not much improvement over Clinton I.

Obama's lack of experience is pretty clear cut. It might not be a deal killer, but it's certainly worth hearing how he addresses it.
According to the Wikipedia article on him, Obama was president of the Harvard Law Review, and

He completed his J.D. degree magna cum laude in 1991. On returning to Chicago, Obama directed a voter registration drive. As an associate attorney with Miner, Barnhill & Galland from 1993 to 1996, he represented community organizers, discrimination claims, and voting rights cases. He was a lecturer of constitutional law at the University of Chicago Law School from 1993 until his election to the U.S. Senate in 2004.
So he spent 11 years lecturing on consititutional law. Ostensibly, he's familiar with the subject, unlike the current president.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama#State_legislature
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama#Senate_career

I suppose one could stack up the bills authored/co-authored by McCain, Clinton and Obama and there voting records to see where they stand, or if one agrees with their votes.


I'd like to know more about how the candidates will seek to reduce tensions/hostilities in the world, or will they simply continue with the inflamatory rhetoric and bullying of those who don't necessarily share the same worldview.
 
  • #659
Schrodinger's Dog said:
Well I'm not an expert, far from it, but do you think that might not be more pragmatism, not being willing to alienate core right wing Christian voters, than any real belief in their issues?

Sure it is, but given the circumstances that is no excuse. Either you defend the Constitution or not. Given that he took an oath to defend the Constitution with his life... so much for integrity. He is duty-bound to denounce those who have committed crimes against the nation.

Bush just vetoed the ban on waterboarding. I wonder if McCain still wants to give him a big hug.

I have also heard McCain promoting the idea that "unlike the case of Vietnam", if we lose in Iraq the enemy will follow us home. Apparently he is either so old that he forgets about the Domino Theory, or he is lying.

Frankly, compared to the Russians and their 20,000 nukes, the terrorists are a joke. Of course we want to deal with terrorism head-on, but McCain is either fear mongering or selling out. And given that 2 million people and one elephant followed by a mariachi band have crossed the American-Mexican border illegally since we began the war on terror, why isn't he nearly as worried about our own border? One could probably cross the border in a tank towing a trailer full of nukes, and no one would notice.

Where was McCain when Bush tried to give control of our ports to a foreign nation [with a marginal history wrt terrorism] while we are allegedly at war?
 
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  • #660
BG said:
I'd be interested in hearing explanations from both about their experience levels. That's a valid topic to ask of either candidate.

Astronuc said:
She's no more prepared than Obama or McCain, and I bet neither of them is prepared either.

For some reason McCain's military experience is not mentioned in thread. He retired as a Navy Captain (22yrs) and had been in command of an A7 squadron. He was awarded the Silver Star, Bronze Star, Legion of Merit, Distinguished Flying Cross and of course the Purple Heart.
 
  • #661
Evo said:
Members here (I won't name them) have stated that they intentionally vote in a primary for another party's candidate with the intent to further their candidate's chances. Be careful of calling your friends unethical or dishonest. :smile:

Ethics are not a matter of popularity. :smile:
 
  • #662
Obama Wins Democratic Caucuses in Wyoming
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=88019885


'PolitiFact' Examines Obama's Experience
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=88019888

Weekend Edition Sunday, March 9, 2008 · Supporters of Hillary Clinton cite experience as one of the reasons she is best suited to be president in 2008. Is Barack Obama the newcomer she makes him out to be? PolitiFact.com calculated how much public service experience the candidates bring to the table. Editor Bill Adair speaks with Liane Hansen about the findings.


Now PolitiFact is an interesting website -

http://politifact.com/truth-o-meter/
http://politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2008/mar/07/obamas-20-years-experience/
Obama's 20 years of experience
By Angie Drobnic Holan
Published on Friday, March 7th, 2008 at 12:31 p.m.

SUMMARY: Though often described as an upstart or newcomer, Barack Obama has a solid resume in public service work -- twenty years worth, in fact.

http://politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2008/feb/19/clintons-35-year-claim/
Adding up Clinton's 35-year claim
By Bill Adair
Published on Tuesday, February 19th, 2008 at 03:49 p.m.

SUMMARY: The New York senator often boasts of 35 years of experience in politics or as "an agent of change." We do the math and find her comparison with Obama is way off, but that her general point about political experience is largely accurate.

Sen. Hillary Clinton often boasts that she has a long resume — 35 years long, to be precise.


The McCain file:
http://politifact.com/truth-o-meter/personalities/john-mccain/

5 conservative concerns about McCain
http://politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2008/feb/14/5-reasons-conservatives-dislike-mccain/
 
  • #663
March 9, 2008
The Long Run
Obama in Senate: Star Power, Minor Role
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/09/us/politics/09obama.html
By KATE ZERNIKE and JEFF ZELENY
. . . .

He [Obama] went to the Senate intent on learning the ways of the institution, telling reporters he would be “looking for the washroom and trying to figure out how the phones work.” But frustrated by his lack of influence and what he called the “glacial pace,” he soon opted to exploit his star power. He was running for president even as he was still getting lost in the Capitol’s corridors.

Outside Washington, Mr. Obama was a multimedia sensation — people offered free tickets to his book readings for $125 on eBay and contributed thousands of dollars each to his political action committee to watch him on stage questioning policy experts.

But inside the Senate, Mr. Obama, the junior senator from Illinois, was 99th in seniority and in the minority party his first two years. In committee hearings, he had to wait his turn until every other senator had asked questions. He once telephoned reporters himself to draw attention to his amendments. And some senior colleagues were cool to the newcomer, whom they considered naïve.

Determined to be viewed as substantive, Mr. Obama kept his head down, declining Sunday talk show invitations for his first year, and consulted Senate elders for advice. He was cautious — even on the Iraq war, which he had opposed as a Senate candidate. He voted against the withdrawal of troops and proposed legislation calling for a drawdown only after he was running for president and polls showed voters favoring it.

. . . .

Early on in his tenure in Washington, he concluded that it would be hard to have much of an impact inside the Senate, where partisan conflict increasingly provoked filibuster threats, nomination fights and near gridlock even on routine spending bills.

“I think it’s very possible to have a Senate career here that is not particularly useful,” he said in an interview, reflecting on his first year. And it would be better for his political prospects not to become a Senate insider, which could saddle him with the kind of voting record that has tripped up so many senators who would be president.

“It’s sort of logic turned on its head, but it really is true,” said Tom Daschle of South Dakota, the former senator and Democratic leader who has been a close adviser to Mr. Obama.

“Two things develop the more time you spend here,” Mr. Daschle said. “One is a mind-set that we did it this way before, we should do it this way again, and I think that’s a real burden. More importantly — and Hillary and McCain are the perfect examples of this — the longer you are here, you take on enemies. And these enemies don’t forget.”
So is he ready to be president?
 
  • #664
Significant challenges await the next president. It weakened economy, ongoing war(s) and increased demand for spending.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080306/pl_nm/usa_politics_issues_dc;_ylt=Aj_wv8GHgghYKzX.Xo3q1j9h24cA

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The next president will face long-simmering domestic problems that range from a weakening economy to ballooning health care costs and stubborn budget deficits.

The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, which cost $11 billion a month, are among the policy challenges that will remain for whoever takes over the White House next January.

They are part of President George W. Bush's focus on national security issues that followed the September 11, 2001, attacks on the United States.

But an aging population will put growing pressure on Social Security and Medicare, as well as other parts of the federal budget, and pressing tax issues could mean the next president will arrive in the Oval Office with the inbox already full.

"It is an agenda waiting for the president, rather than an agenda the president gets to set," said Maya MacGuinness, president of the Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget, a bipartisan group that advocates fiscal discipline.

Sen. John McCain, the presumptive Republican nominee, supports extending Bush's tax cuts beyond their 2010 expiration. He wants to slash corporate tax rates and eliminate the alternative minimum tax, which is aimed at the wealthiest but threatens to ensnare millions of middle-class taxpayers.

Abolishing the tax would cost the federal Treasury about $1 trillion over a decade. Bush only backed temporary AMT relief, which helped mask long-term budget deficits.

Democratic presidential hopefuls Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama have called for tax breaks targeted to the middle class and both want to reform the AMT. They have also called for major health care reform aimed at extending coverage for the estimated 47 million uninsured Americans.

Clinton wants to provide mandatory health insurance for all Americans and require large employers to provide health insurance or help pay for it. Subsidies for the poor would be provided, along with small-business tax breaks.

Obama proposes creating a national public insurance plan that would allow all citizens to buy the affordable health care available to federal employees.

RISING DEBT

All that would have to be accomplished as the national debt rises and 77 million baby boomers start drawing Social Security retirement payments and Medicare health benefits.

The U.S. debt stood at about $5.6 trillion when Bush took office in January 2001, and is on pace to top $10 trillion by the time he leaves office in January 2009.

. . . .
 
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  • #665
Thoughts on PA: The polls show Clinton with a comfortable lead in the state among likely voters. Is this realistic, though? There is a very large black population in and around Philadelphia that should break for Obama. Likewise, there is a solid population of well-educated, affluent boomers, who also should break for Obama. Last, there is a large population of students, who will also swing the vote Obama's way. I think that the PA primary will be a nail-biter, in part because when polling companies call "likely voters", they are under-sampling a crucial demographic: young people in their teens and twenties who are tied to their cell phones and who don't even have listed land-lines.

It looks as if Clinton has ceded tomorrow's Mississipi contest to Obama. She's campaigning in PA while he is holding two rallies in MS - one in Columbus and one in Jackson.
http://projects.washingtonpost.com/2008-presidential-candidates/tracker/
 
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  • #666
Mississippi
Dem: Obama
Rep: McCain
 
  • #667
BobG said:
Mississippi
Dem: Obama
Rep: McCain
Ditto.
 
  • #668
Ditto here as well.

When it was announced that Obama had fired a high ranking campaign manager for calling Hillary a monster, Hillary responded RRRRRRAAAAAHHHHHH!
 
  • #669
Ivan Seeking said:
Ditto here as well.

When it was announced that Obama had fired a high ranking campaign manager for calling Hillary a monster, Hillary responded RRRRRRAAAAAHHHHHH!

:smile:
 
  • #670
There are reports that contract employees have snooped in Obama's passport files:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/20/obama-passport-breached-_n_92668.html

Looks like the motive may have been innocent curiosity, but who knows. Just what kind of data are in passport files? And am I the only one who first thought of Hillary, not the Republicans :rolleyes: ?
 
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  • #671
lisab said:
There are reports that contract employees have snooped in Obama's passport files:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/20/obama-passport-breached-_n_92668.html

Looks like the motive may have been innocent curiosity, but who knows. Just what kind of data are in passport files? And am I the only one who first thought of Hillary, not the Republicans :rolleyes: ?
Why would you think of Hillary or the Republican party?

Passport information, other than birthday, eye and hair color would have information to which countries you traveled that required a passport or special visa. It's rather well known where he's traveled and it's been an issue about him dressed in traditional tribal garb, which I think is silly. He's just playing to his audience. I guess some people want to try and give more significance to things than are there. He's a politician, he will play all of his cards. Or perhaps I am naive and there really is something more sinister afoot.
 
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  • #672
Whether or not this is serious depends on what data are in the files. I'm sure it's more than what shows up on your passport. He's a senator; certainly, members of Congress get a thorough screening when they take office. I wouldn't expect his security clearance report is in that file, but who knows?

I think of Hillary because I'm not a fan of the Clinton's treatment of those they perceive as rivals. I think of Republicans because this smells Rovian to me.
 
  • #673
I think of more importance would be where he has traveled. As the link you provided says, it seems no more than idle curiosity on the part of a couple of employees, but what I would guess is that, worse case, they might be looking for something they might sell to the media.

We don't allow conspiracy theories here. Please don't make accusations without strong grounds to back them up. Lisab, you are a super wonderful member. I enjoy your posts, just doing my duty to be equally mean to everyone. :frown:
 
  • #674
You're right, I have no evidence of a directed smear campaign against Obama.

I'll feel more at ease when this is investigated. Like you and the link said, it looks like it could simply be idle curiosity on the part of contracted employees.

The members here and your constant vigilance is what makes PF as great as it is!
 
  • #675
lisab said:
You're right, I have no evidence of a directed smear campaign against Obama.
I am sure there is a smear campaign! What political race doesn't have one? I just think with Hillary's contacts and the Republican party, they wouldn't have to resort to something this obvious. I'd have to say that I don't see Obama running a smear campign, so if he is, he's doing it well enough to go undetected, which makes him the best candidate. :biggrin:
 
  • #676
Evo said:
I am sure there is a smear campaign! What political race doesn't have one? I just think with Hillary's contacts and the Republican party, they wouldn't have to resort to something this obvious. I'd have to say that I don't see Obama running a smear campign, so if he is, he's doing it well enough to go undetected, which makes him the best candidate. :biggrin:

What Obama is doing is playing tug-of-war with smears. Normally politicians smear each other and keep balance. He's just inhaling it all and watching them fall over themselves.

I can guarantee that it was pre-calculated to make the opposition look bad.
 
  • #677
lisab said:
Whether or not this is serious depends on what data are in the files. I'm sure it's more than what shows up on your passport. He's a senator; certainly, members of Congress get a thorough screening when they take office. I wouldn't expect his security clearance report is in that file, but who knows?

I think of Hillary because I'm not a fan of the Clinton's treatment of those they perceive as rivals. I think of Republicans because this smells Rovian to me.
Not only can passport files be used for political reasons, they have. And no one knows this better than the Clintons:
The news was reminiscent of a breach of Bill Clinton's passport information during the 1992 presidential campaign. The FBI launched an investigation after the State Department reported that someone had ripped out pages from his passport file from the late 1960s and '70s.

The department concluded that a search of Clinton's passport records was an attempt to influence the presidential election, reportedly by trying to show that Clinton tried to seek citizenship in another country to avoid the draft. Clinton was running against President George H.W. Bush.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/03/20/obama.passport/index.html

There is a very real reason for concern here.

Edit: State Dep. says Clinton's and McCain's files were also breached - thorough investigation to follow: http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/03/21/obama.passport/index.html
 
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  • #678
Obama gets Richardson endorsement
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7308518.stm
Democratic US presidential hopeful Barack Obama is to be endorsed by New Mexico Governor Bill Richardson, himself a former candidate.
Mr Richardson is expected to make his endorsement in Portland, Oregon.
. . . .
"I believe he is the kind of once-in-a-lifetime leader that can bring our nation together and restore America's moral leadership in the world," said Mr Richardson, in a statement quoted by the Associated Press news agency.
. . . .
 
  • #679
Wow! This is big. A little too late to significantly affect numbers perhaps, but symbolically huge. Bill Richardson ...VP?
 
  • #680
Gokul43201 said:
Wow! This is big. A little too late to significantly affect numbers perhaps, but symbolically huge. Bill Richardson ...VP?
That would be a fine ticket indeed!
 
  • #681
Yeah, it would ensure that the KKK or other White Supremacy groups don't assassinate Obama, because then they are left with Richardson. Brilliant!
 
  • #682
With respect to electronic passport files, apparently they contain SS number, contact information, and other very personal information.

Three contractors apparently looked at Obama's file, and one of those apparently looked at McCain's, and possibly one other at Clinton's as part of a training program. They were supposed to look for family members. It appears that it was simple curiosity.
 
  • #683
Astronuc said:
With respect to electronic passport files, apparently they contain SS number, contact information, and other very personal information.

Three contractors apparently looked at Obama's file, and one of those apparently looked at McCain's, and possibly one other at Clinton's as part of a training program. They were supposed to look for family members. It appears that it was simple curiosity.

If someone really wanted to smear someone using that information, they could do something like open a credt card using the SS number. Then go online and order a bunch of kiddy porn using the card. Leak it to the opposition, sit back and wait for all hell to break loose.

The term that the State Department spokesman used was "inappropriate curiousity."

Confesssion: I have inappropriate curiousity, too! Like, all the time :-p !
 
  • #684
Bill Clinton is calling Obama's patriotism into question, saying that McCain and his wife are the candidates who love their country.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/21/another-bill-clinton-mome_n_92818.html
Here is the full quote: "I think it would be a great thing if we had an election between two people who loved this country and were devoted to the interests of the country and people could actually ask themselves who is right on the issues, instead of all this other stuff that always seems to intrude itself on our politics."

With Hillary numerically out of the race, the Clintons seem to be willing to do anything to damage the presumptive Democratic nominee. They may as well join the GOP.
 
  • #685
turbo-1 said:
With Hillary numerically out of the race, the Clintons seem to be willing to do anything to damage the presumptive Democratic nominee. They may as well join the GOP.

The numbers being what they are, Sen. Clinton's only chance is to convince the superdelegates that she is electable and that Sen. Obama is not. One way to do this is to make Sen. Obama unelectable.

One might also consider 2012. A Sen. McCain defeat of Sen. Obama (which I think is improbable, but not ridiculously so) would then position her as the front runner with "you could have had Hillary".

Of course, I have no idea what her thinking is. I am just pointing out that if her first goal is to eventually reach the White House (as opposed, to, for example, insure a Democratic victory in 2008), her actions are quite rational.
 
  • #686
turbo-1 said:
Bill Clinton is calling Obama's patriotism into question, saying that McCain and his wife are the candidates who love their country.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/21/another-bill-clinton-mome_n_92818.htmlWith Hillary numerically out of the race, the Clintons seem to be willing to do anything to damage the presumptive Democratic nominee. They may as well join the GOP.

Hehe. That wouldn't work over here, patriotism is something that exists but is understated. If you started saying some candidate was not patriotic you'd get ridiculed.

It's pretty lame anyway, since when was patriotism defined in such terms? This just goes to show that Mccain is considered Republican light. Obviously only Republicans are capable of patriotism. :wink:
 
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  • #687
Ever since 911 there has been a strong bias against dissent in this country. Obama takes this head-on, which is one reason why I admire and respect him. He didn't wear a flag on his lapel because he believes that Bush and company have used the flag as a symbol to further an un-American agenda. I agree; in fact I made this point long before Obama came along. In fact I felt so strong about this and was so angry at my country that I threw away my flag long ago.

When his wife made her controversial statements, my first thought was that it would be nice if I could feel proud of my country once again - as I always did until Bush became possible.

When Wright described 911 as America's chickens coming home to roost, my first thought was, well, of course, everyone knows this. There may be nuts out there who are irrational and whose actions can never be justified, but to say that we haven't brought this on ourselves through decades of abusive foreign policies, such as by selling weapons to both sides of a conflict as we did during the Iran/Iraq war, is either disingenuous or naive.

We need a President who is willing to address the serious issues - what is wrong with America. That is true patriotism. Any idiot can waive a flag and claim to be patriotic, as we have seen.

When Obama made his 2002 speech stating bluntly and plainly that the Iraq war was not necessary, it was an incredible act of bravery both politically and personally - true patriotism! What's more, he has been proven right. This is the sort of man who should be steering the ship of State - a man with foresight and who speaks the truth when it counts.
 
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  • #688
From the page to which turbo provided the link.
MSNBC is reporting that on the campaign trail today in Charlotte, North Carolina, the former president said a general election matchup between his wife, Sen. Clinton, and Sen. John McCain would be between "two people who love this country" without "all this other stuff that always seems to intrude itself on our politics."
:rolleyes:

Bill needs to disappear for the next 10 months.

Meanwhile -

Mayhem At Fox News: Anchor Walks Off Set, Wallace Rails Network For "Obama-Bashing"
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/21/mayhem-at-fox-news-ancho_n_92743.html
Fox News' very own anchors are speaking out — and walking off — over what they perceive to be "Obama-bashing" on their network.

This morning on "Fox and Friends," Brian Kilmeade walked off the set after a dispute with his co-hosts Gretchen Carlson (she who celebrates deadly floods) and Steve Doocy over Obama's comment that his grandmother is a "typical white person." Kilmeade argued that the remark needed to be taken in context and eventually got so fed up with his co-hosts that he walked off set.

Later, "Fox News Sunday" host Chris Wallace came on the show and railed against "Fox and Friends" for what he called "Obama-bashing."


McCain Spiritual Guide Accused Gov't Of Enabling 'Black Genocide'
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/21/mccain-spiritual-guide-ac_n_92757.html
Reverend Rod Parsley of the World Harvest Church of Columbus, Ohio -- whom Sen. John McCain hails as a spiritual adviser -- has suggested on several occasions that the U.S. government was complicit in facilitating black genocide.

In speeches that have gone largely unnoticed, Parsley (who is white) compares Planned Parenthood, the reproductive care and family planning group, to the Klu Klux Klan and Nazis, and describes the American government as enablers of murder for supporting the organization.

OK - so we have flaky candidates with even flakier spiritual guides.
 
  • #689
Well I'm leery of patriotism in high doses it leads to nationalism and that is seldom a wise philosophy. But Ivan Seeking raises the point that patriotism isn't just about being proud of your country, it's caring enough to say when your country is wrong.

I think a few Americans summed it up rather succinctly. And as such am going to leave my opinion in their much more capable hands.

G. K. Chesterton:

"My country, right or wrong" is a thing no patriot would ever think of saying except in a desperate case. It is like saying "My mother, drunk or sober."H. L. Mencken:

The notion that a radical is one who hates his country is naïve and usually idiotic. He is, more likely, one who likes his country more than the rest of us, and is thus more disturbed than the rest of us when he sees it debauched. He is not a bad citizen turning to crime; he is a good citizen driven to despair.Henry Steele Commager:

Men in authority will always think that criticism of their policies is dangerous. They will always equate their policies with patriotism, and find criticism subversive.

James Baldwin:

I love America more than any other country in this world, and, exactly for this reason, I insist on the right to criticize her perpetually.

Mark Twain:

The government is merely a servant -- merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a patriot and who isn't. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

Ralph Waldo Emerson:

When a whole nation is roaring Patriotism at the top of its voice, I am fain to explore the cleanness of its hands and the purity of its heart.Sinclair Lewis:

When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross.

Theodore Roosevelt:

To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. (1918)

William O. Douglas:

Restriction of free thought and free speech is the most dangerous of all subversions. It is the one un-American act that could most easily defeat us.

And one man who I think is controversial and yet speaks some truths.

Hermann Goering:

Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.
 
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  • #690
Raining McCain
by The McCain Girls


That's just not right! :smile:

Oh gawd! This is even worse!
 
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  • #691
Ivan Seeking said:
Raining McCain
by The McCain Girls


That's just not right! :smile:


:smile:

No that's wrong, in every sense of the word wrong. :smile:
 
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  • #692
On foreign policy -

McCain Calls for 'Global Compact' to Resolve Conflicts
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=89123951
All Things Considered, March 26, 2008 · Disavowing unilateralism, Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) clarified his foreign policy views on Wednesday, promising, if elected, to consult and work more closely with allies overseas to resolve future conflicts than the Bush administration has done.

Domestically -

McCain Rejects Broad U.S. Aid on Mortgages
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/26/us/politics/26mortgage.html
SANTA ANA, Calif. — Drawing a sharp distinction between himself and the two Democratic presidential candidates, Senator John McCain of Arizona warned Tuesday against vigorous government action to solve the deepening mortgage crisis and the market turmoil it has caused, saying that “it is not the duty of government to bail out and reward those who act irresponsibly, whether they are big banks or small borrowers.”

Mr. McCain’s comments came a day after Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York called for direct federal intervention to help affected homeowners, including a $30 billion fund for states and communities to assist those at risk of foreclosure. Mrs. Clinton’s Democratic opponent, Senator Barack Obama of Illinois, has similarly called for greater federal involvement, including creation of a $10 billion relief package to prevent foreclosures.

As the foreclosure crisis has rippled across the economy, it has thrust itself to the forefront of the presidential race, with Democrats seizing on the issue in urging forceful government steps to alleviate the crisis. Mr. McCain’s remarks Tuesday, to a group of Hispanic businessmen here, signaled a sharpening divide between the two parties’ candidates, with the senator warning against quick, costly government fixes to a crises rooted in the private sector.

“Rampant speculation” on both sides is the root cause of the crisis, Mr. McCain said. He placed part of the responsibility for the mortgage mess on lenders, who he said had grown “complacent” in a rising market and as a result acquired a “false sense of security” that caused them to “lower their lending standards.”

McCain is definitely an improvement over the current president.
 
  • #693
Astronuc said:
McCain is definitely an improvement over the current president.
Possibly, but I am quite leery of him after learning that he believes that Iran is training al Qaeda terrorists. His lack of understanding of the political dynamics of the ME is quite disturbing. If he is elected, he will be responsible for cleaning up Bush's mess, and he hasn't been doing his homework. His much-vaunted foreign-policy credentials seem quite thin.
 
  • #694
turbo-1 said:
Possibly, but I am quite leery of him after learning that he believes that Iran is training al Qaeda terrorists. His lack of understanding of the political dynamics of the ME is quite disturbing.
Where did he say that?
 
  • #695
mheslep said:
Where did he say that?
Looks like bait... but I'll bite.

In an interview with Hugh Hewitt, speaking from Amman (Mar 17):
McCain said:
As you know, there are al Qaeda operatives that are taken back into Iran, given training as leaders, and they’re moving back into Iraq.
http://hughhewitt.townhall.com/talk...tentGuid=ae522a49-6c82-4791-a76e-44ebb718bf32

And again, in a press conference (of sorts), also, I think, in Amman (Mar 18):
McCain said:
[It's] common knowledge and has been reported in the media that al-Qaeda is going back into Iran and receiving training and are coming back into Iraq from Iran, that's well known. And it's unfortunate.
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/03/19/dems-seize-on-mccains-iran-gaffe/
 
  • #696
mheslep, it was all over the news during his ME trip. I thought that everybody had heard these gaffes by now. At one point, Lieberman stepped into correct him, but that certainly should not have been necessary. When a presidential candidate spouts absolute nonsense as "common knowledge" I have Bush "yellowcake/WMD" flashbacks.
 
  • #697
Al Qaida (basically a Sunni group) is a big problem for Iran (predominantly Shii), especially near the borders of Iraq and Afghanistan!
 
  • #698
Some talking heads say that McCain has been skewing his language to confuse the issue of who is causing the problems, but he carried it so far that he managed to confuse himself.

My dad is easily confused at his age as well. He is about the same age as McCain.
 
  • #699
I don't think age is the problem, Ivan - it's ignorance. McCain repeated those untruths several times over the course of days. His grasp of the sociology and history of the Middle East is woefully inadequate. Furthermore, by painting Iran as the region's bad guys, he gives Bush and Cheney more cover for their wish to attack Iran. I really don't want McCain to succeed Bush, because I don't expect that his foreign policy will be an improvement.
 
  • #700
I find it really hard to believe that McCain can be so disconnected as to get this wrong. Unfortunately, I can't come up with any good excuses for him (not after he said the same thing twice).

Nearly as hard to believe is the possibility that he's somehow bought the al qaeda mantra that the administration has been peddling, when any reasonably well-informed person knows that AQI is responsible for only a tiny fraction of the violence.
 
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