US School Districts: Changing Grading System - Is It A Good Idea?

[phinds]

To all who have participated so far, I thank you. I don't always agree but I'm glad to have started such a robust discussion.

Let's keep going. I DO think that I am to some extent an "old white guy" who was raised in a military household and I put too much emphasis on short term order and discipline.

I am very much in favor of any changes that will truly help disadvantage poor kids of all races/creeds/colors/whatever. They are not well served by our current K-12 system but personally I don't see how abandonment of interim results/feedback is a good thing and the statement in the original article I posted (indicating abandoning using anything associated with directly measuring students' knowledge) REALLY raised my hackles. The subsequent article that I reference softened that somewhat but not enough for me to favor the new system.

 

[fresh_42]

Agreed

I'm not sure I do. I think it is important to know that Oregon isn't at the atlantic coast. And if you know where to find which, then you know all 50. Maybe Delaware slips through a list, but even I think I can name all 50. Maybe I should have chosen the oversea territories instead, or some volume formulas in geometry.

It is always about where to draw the line. E.g. my grandmother had to learn many poems by heart, I still had one long one to memorize, and I bet there is (often) none nowadays. Critical thinking becomes more and more important, and this cannot be learned by hard skills. Whether a specific grading system is a good measure for that is a different question.

 

[mfb]

They are not well served by our current K-12 system but personally I don't see how abandonment of interim results/feedback is a good thing

Who wants to abandon interim results or feedback?
The proposed change just doesn't want that interim result/feedback to enter the final grade.

 

[phinds]

To all who have participated so far, I thank you. I don't always agree but I'm glad to have started such a robust discussion.

Let's keep going. I DO think that I am to some extent an "old white guy" who was raised in a military household and I put too much emphasis on short term order and discipline. I am very much in favor of any changes that will truly help disadvantage poor kids of all races/creeds/colors/whatever. They are not well served by our current K-12 system but personally I don't see how abandonment of interim results/feedback is a good thing and the statement in the original article I posted, indicating a distregard for things that measure knowledge REALLY raised my hackles.

Who wants to abandon interim results or feedback?
The proposed change just doesn't want that interim result/feedback to enter the final grade.

I finally got that they do want it in the final grade but it DOES seem to me that they are proposing abandoning interim feedback. Perhaps I haven't looked at it enough.

 

[phinds]

It is always about where to draw the line.

Boy Howdy ain't that the truth. Reminds me of the story about Feynman's statement when asked to give a talk on the state of physics education in Brazil after he had taught there for a year. Basically he said that they weren't really teaching physics at all, they were just teaching memorization. When I was young I think there was too much emphasis on memorization, but I don't think abandoning all of it would be a good idea. For example, I personally am appalled by the fact that most school systems in the US no longer require kids to drill on their multiplication tables and they leave school not knowing them (*). Having some idea where states and countries are is also a good idea.

* As an example, A friend of mine bought 12 plants (all the same kind) at a store and when he got to the register they were lined up 3x4. They clerk started COUNTING them and when Nick pointed out that it was a simple case of 3x4 she just looked annoyed that he had interrupted her and started counting again. I've had similar experiences.

 

[mfb]

I finally got that they do want it in the final grade but it DOES seem to me that they are proposing abandoning interim feedback.

Not to me. What "The Week" writes in the image you posted is a misinterpretation of the proposed change, as discussed in post #10.

 

[fresh_42]

As an example, A friend of mine bought 12 plants (all the same kind) at a store and when he got to the register they were lined up 3x4. They clerk started COUNTING them and when Nick pointed out that it was a simple case of 3x4 she just looked annoyed that he had interrupted her and started counting again. I've had similar experiences.

Me, too.

 

[symbolipoint]

Topic is long and tracing all of its details is tiring.

Homework and intermediary assessments ARE important. Homework and quizes should be part of the course grades. Why? You must do the homework as a way to learn. You perform your assessment or quiz to show that you have kept what you learned, at least for a short time. You do your (possibly ) final examination to show that you learned what you studied during the term. Contributing some credit for doing the homework convinces the student to actually study, learn, and do the homework to show that effort. To stop grading and including homework as part of the overall assessment to grade issuance is BAD.

 

[Office_Shredder]

I finally got that they do want it in the final grade but it DOES seem to me that they are proposing abandoning interim feedback. Perhaps I haven't looked at it enough.

As far as I can tell, from the proposal a teacher can give a quiz, give everyone a grade, and then not include that grade in the final grade for the class, and that is fine.

For what it's worth, I do agree with you that the students that show up to class and sit there and listen are more likely to get better grades. But that will just be reflected in the fact that they get a better grade at the end. I doubt any of the kids you would consider disruptive or troublemakers were modifying their behavior out of a fear of losing attendance points on their final grade.

In fact, in some ways I think this might be better for those situations. In the current system, if your kid fails a quiz, you are incentived to go yell at the teacher until you bully them into changing the grade. Under the new system, you can just accept that information as is and work with your kid (or not, as some parents will) to help them learn what they are missing.

 

[Dale]

I DO think that I am to some extent an "old white guy"

Well, certainly it looks like you are in your picture

 

[mfb]

You must do the homework as a way to learn.

Not if you already know the topic (that's my mathematics example in post 28).
Not necessarily in the week the homework comes up.
And you don't need to have that homework influence your final grade in order to do the homework.

Contributing some credit for doing the homework convinces the student to actually study, learn, and do the homework to show that effort.

Is that more than just a hypothesis?

 

[phinds]

I always think of the benefit of homework as being more along the lines of learning that some tasks are not optional. Are assigned tasks optional out in the working world? If your boss, or other team members in the working world, count on you to finish a task, can you just turn it in late for a partial grade?

 

[phinds]

In the current system, if your kid fails a quiz, you are incentived to go yell at the teacher until you bully them into changing the grade.

And what a wonderful example THAT will set for your kid !

Here's how my wife and I see it (and this is from a LOT of direct experience):

 

[Office_Shredder]

I always think of the benefit of homework as being more along the lines of learning that some tasks are not optional. Are assigned tasks optional out in the working world? If your boss, or other team members in the working world, count on you to finish a task, can you just turn it in late for a partial grade?

Frequently, yes. Otherwise no project would ever go past its deadline.

 

[phinds]

The Superintendent or designee shall inform teachers of the district’s policy regarding grading, including expectations that academic grades shall be based solely on students’ current levels of mastery of the Board-adopted standards and shall not be influenced by behavior or nonacademic measures. Academic grades shall use multiple means to assess mastery and will include opportunities for reflection, revision, and reassessment in order to ensure the mastery of grade level standards for all students. Academic grades shall reflect progress towards standards and not quantity of assignments completed. Citizenship grades shall be based on students’ behavior and nonacademic measures, such as work habits, effort, and ability to meet indicated timelines for assignment completion. Board-adopted standards for citizenship shall be used to communicate current levels and areas for needed improvement.​

That certainly does paint a different picture than what is implied from the article I posted but even so, I'm not convinced it's a good idea. For example I find the lack of specific need for timed assignments to be troublesome. See post #42

 

[symbolipoint]

Not if you already know the topic (that's my mathematics example in post 28).
Not necessarily in the week the homework comes up.
And you don't need to have that homework influence your final grade in order to do the homework.Is that more than just a hypothesis?

Main points are, you do the homework and you learn; and then this helps with earning your grade. Those who do not do their homework (usually) do not learn and do not earn a good grade. THAT is the experience of TEACHERS AND STUDENTS.

I am obviously ignoring the exceptional kind of students.

 

[Dale]

I have to say that as a teacher myself I have my own opinion on this topic. I believe that I have two primary responsibilities as a teacher. The first is to teach the student the material, and the second is to certify to third parties how well the student has mastered the material.

The purpose of the final grade is to accomplish the second. As such, I think that it makes sense to have the final grade reflect the final state of knowledge, regardless of the student's path there.

Interim grades are useful for accomplishing the first goal, they help communicate both to the student and the teacher where the student is in their progress. But since those two sets of grades have different purposes it is reasonable to separate them.

Also, I like to have tests whose difficulty level is targeted such that no student makes either a 0 or a 100 and the average student makes around a 50. Students tend to not like that.

 

[jack action]

Homework and intermediary assessments ARE important. Homework and quizes should be part of the course grades. Why? You must do the homework as a way to learn.

Main points are, you do the homework and you learn; and then this helps with earning your grade. Those who do not do their homework (usually) do not learn and do not earn a good grade. THAT is the experience of TEACHERS AND STUDENTS.

Definitively NOT my experience. Homework has always had a bad effect on my learning experience.

I am obviously ignoring the exceptional kind of students.

Why would the exception pay a price for the others? In the end, if you know your material, you know it. If you don't, then find a way (with the help of your teacher) that best work for you. (It may include doing - or not - homework).

 

[jack action]

Are assigned tasks optional out in the working world? If your boss, or other team members in the working world, count on you to finish a task, can you just turn it in late for a partial grade?

Is the goal making citizen that blindly follow what they were asked to do? Maybe you need people who can think by themselves and choose the way that work best for them? Especially, being able to ignore tasks that are not helpful.

 

[fresh_42]

Is the goal making citizen that blindly follow what they were asked to do? Maybe you need people who can think by themselves and choose the way that work best for them? Especially, being able to ignore tasks that are not helpful.

This is a highly political question. While modern democracies require an educated and informed population, they simultaneously usually fail to pursue this goal. Theory and practice differ significantly in nearly all countries, simply because it is easier to draw advantages from an un- or ill informed votership. And since it is politics which defines the standards, there is an inherent conflict of interests. Teachers are (at least here) left alone with the task to accomplish the goal to enlighten future voters. However, this is a different discussion and has little to do with how different grading systems help or do not help in education.

 

[jack action]

I have to say that as a teacher myself I have my own opinion on this topic. I believe that I have two primary responsibilities as a teacher. The first is to teach the student the material, and the second is to certify to third parties how well the student has mastered the material.

The purpose of the final grade is to accomplish the second. As such, I think that it makes sense to have the final grade reflect the final state of knowledge, regardless of the student's path there.

Interim grades are useful for accomplishing the first goal, they help communicate both to the student and the teacher where the student is in their progress. But since those two sets of grades have different purposes it is reasonable to separate them.

Also, I like to have tests whose difficulty level is targeted such that no student makes either a 0 or a 100 and the average student makes around a 50. Students tend to not like that.

I only had one teacher like that and it was the best teacher I ever had. He was tough. The average on tests was sometimes about 30%. But, in the end, he standardized the grade. What is neat about that system is that your grade represent how good you are compared to the rest of the group. With a low average, exceptional people can shine without the rest of the group suffering from a low grade. What does it means to have 100% on a test when half the class has the same grade?

I know that some people prefer the idea to be graded according to if you have the knowledge or not. But what people want to know ultimately from kids is how they will do in comparison with others. If everybody's bad, it takes less to outshines everyone.

 

[jack action]

However, this is a different discussion and has little to do with how different grading systems help or do not help in education.

Not if someone says that grading homework is important to make obedient workers.

 

[Vanadium 50]

In most organizations you get what you measure, so the two are not unrelated.

I would say that education is an exception here. If grades are an accurate measurement of a student's performance, should they not be used to determine the teacher's performance? If Ms. Brown's students have higher grades than Mr. Green's, shouldn't Ms. Brown be rewarded?

My argument goes like this:
1. I believe some schools are better than others.
2. Disproportionately more of the worse than average schools are in poor and/or minority districts.
3. One (but not the only) piece of evidence for this is minority students get a higher fraction of D's and F's in San Diego.

The solution to this appears not to be to improve the schools but to change the assessment. Again, show of hands - who thinks this is a good idea? At best, it's a band-aid on the problem they are trying to solve.

Back to "you get what you measure" - the School Board has said what their metric is: numbers of D's and F's given out, and they really don't like them. I think we can predict what the outcome of this will be. And I don't think the students will be the winners here.

 

[Office_Shredder]

That certainly does paint a different picture than what is implied from the article I posted but even so, I'm not convinced it's a good idea. For example I find the lack of specific need for timed assignments to be troublesome. See post #42

I still maintain post #44

 

[Ygggdrasil]

The title of this thread is misleading. The OP cites an article titled "San Diego Schools Are Changing Their Grading System. Is It A Good Idea?" and somehow PF expands the headline to encompass to all US schools.

 

[Dale]

What is neat about that system is that your grade represent how good you are compared to the rest of the group.

The other neat thing is that it is much easier to raise your grade as the class goes on. There is a lot more room on the top end of the scale available to move your average grade up.

I think of a test as a measurement device. You almost always want to calibrate your measurement device such that the thing you are measuring is in the center of your measurement range and your measurement range covers the entire range you expect to see.

 

[Vanadium 50]

The title of this thread is misleading.

Agreed and already reported.

 

[Dale]

If grades are an accurate measurement of a student's performance, should they not be used to determine the teacher's performance? If Ms. Brown's students have higher grades than Mr. Green's, shouldn't Ms. Brown be rewarded?

Absolutely. I am not sure why you think education is an exception in this regard.

The solution to this appears not to be to improve the schools but to change the assessment. Again, show of hands - who thinks this is a good idea?

This is a false dichotomy. What indication do you have that they are not both improving the schools and changing the assessment? I think that improving your assessment is an essential part of improving the school.

Again, you get what you measure (education is not an exception) so while you go about improving things make sure that your measurement accurately reflects the thing that you want to improve.

If you want to improve the kid’s compliance with homework instructions then measure that and if you want to improve the kid’s mastery of the material at the end of the class then measure that. If the incentives are then tied to the measurement then whatever you measure will typically be improved.

Back to "you get what you measure" - the School Board has said what their metric is: numbers of D's and F's given out, and they really don't like them. I think we can predict what the outcome of this will be. And I don't think the students will be the winners here.

That depends entirely on what the Ds and Fs measure. If they measure student mastery of the material by the end of the course then an improvement in the Ds and Fs will be a win for the students. If they don’t measure anything or if they measure the teacher’s willingness to “cook the books” then their improvement will not be a win for the students.

That is an argument for standardized testing which is unfortunately something much maligned by my local superintendent.

 

[Stephen Tashi]

The features of a grading system should be evaluated on the basis of what the grades are used for. For example, I don't think college admissions people pay much attention to a person's K-8 grades.

I think the main use of grades is to inform parents of how their child is doing and determine the N+1 year curriculum for a person who has completed year N of education ( e.g. should they be sent to the next grade?, should they be in a "vocational track" or a college "preparatory track"?)

Parents are likely to interpret grades as "They way it was back when I was in school". That aspect argues against any changes in grading systems!

The title of the OP is melodramatic. The USA Educational system is not a national system. It is under the control of local school boards in political divisons as small as individual counties or towns. State and Federal governments can influence local policy by making supplementary funding conditional on various things. (Does the State of California have laws that give the state control over local school boards? If so, that situation doesn't apply in many other states of the USA.) Prominent universities or large associations of universities can influence local policies by setting certain requirements for admission. Any nationwide change in education policies will be the result of a tug-of-war between various organizations.

 

[phinds]

I think the main use of grades is to inform parents of how their child is doing and determine the N+1 year curriculum for a person who has completed year N of education ( e.g. should they be sent to the next grade? ...​

That's not even a question in the Ithaca NY school system where my wife teaches, since the district-wide rule in K-8 is that ALL kids WILL be passed on to the next grade totally without any regard for their level of learning or grades unless a parent comes in and specifically requests that their kid be held back (and you can guess how often THAT happens). That's another thing that has me riled up about education in the US, although to be fair, I don't know if that approach is taken in any other school districts in the country.

EDIT: apparently it's called "social promotion" and is widely used and believed by many to be a good idea.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grade_retention

and
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_promotion