Vaidya/Lemaitre-Tolman metrics

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the Vaidya and Lemaitre-Tolman metrics, particularly in the context of modeling radiating spherically symmetric dust. Participants explore the implications of these metrics, their mathematical properties, and the nature of the energy-momentum tensors associated with them.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants express uncertainty about the classification of the Vaidya metric's dust as null dust, questioning whether the worldlines of the "dust particles" are indeed null.
  • There is a claim that the Einstein tensor for dust has only the G00 component non-zero, with a specific expression provided for G00.
  • One participant notes that a change of basis can transform the dust tensor into one representing pure radiation, which they find strange.
  • Another participant suggests that the coordinate u may not be a null coordinate, arguing that the metric implies u is timelike, while others assert that u is indeed a null coordinate.
  • Concerns are raised about non-zero terms in Tuθ for general m(u), with questions about whether constraints exist that would force these terms to be zero.
  • Some participants reference literature that discusses the nature of the Einstein tensor in different coordinate systems, indicating a potential ambiguity in the interpretation of null coordinates.
  • There is a discussion about the implications of coordinate transformations on the classification of coordinates as null or timelike, with examples provided to illustrate differing perspectives.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants exhibit disagreement regarding the classification of the coordinate u and the nature of the energy-momentum tensor in the context of the Vaidya metric. Multiple competing views remain on whether u is a null or timelike coordinate, and the implications of this classification are debated without reaching a consensus.

Contextual Notes

Some calculations and assumptions are noted to be potentially missing or unresolved, particularly regarding the nature of the Einstein tensor in different bases and the implications of coordinate transformations on the classification of coordinates.

pierrecurie
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Is anyone here familiar with the Vaidya/Lemaitre-Tolman metrics? Wiki claims that they're both used to model radiating spherically symmetric dust, but I'm not so sure after grinding out the curvature tensors, etc.

tl;dr a (non rotating) spherical star is ejecting a spherical shell of dust - what metric do I use (short of brute forcing a new solution)?
 
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The Vaidya metric is

[tex] ds^2=r^2d\Omega^2-2dudr-(1-2m(u)/r)du^2[/tex]
where u is a null coordinate.

I get the Einstein tensor for dust, only G00 being non-zero.
[tex] G_{00}=\frac{2\,\left( \frac{d}{d\,u}\,m\right) }{{r}^{2}}[/tex]

This paper may be of interest arXiv:gr-qc/0609036v2 .

I'll see if I have the results for the Tolman metrics somewhere a bit later.

[edit]
After some calculation I found that the Einstein tensor calculated in a local frame basis is that of pure radiation. Confirmed in a textbook also. It seems strange that a change of basis can turn the dust tensor into radiation. But it certainly is the case.
 
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Mentz114 said:
It seems strange that a change of basis can turn the dust tensor into radiation.

Isn't the Vaidya dust null dust? (In other words, aren't the worldlines of the "dust particles" null worldlines?)
 
PeterDonis said:
Isn't the Vaidya dust null dust? (In other words, aren't the worldlines of the "dust particles" null worldlines?)
I think the null coordinates ensure that. What I find strange is that that in the (holonomic) coordinate basis the Einstein tensor is the one I've quoted above, but in a local frame basis we get pure radiation with Gab being proportional to kakb where k is a null vector. I suppose if the 'dust' is null to begin with this is possible.
 
I think you need to recheck G0r and Grr.
 
For general m(u), I'm picking up non-zero terms in T as well. Is there some constraint on m(u) that forces these to zero? Or are they supposed to be non-zero?
 
I haven't done the calculations, but I have a couple of books that state that [itex]G_{uu}[/itex] is the only non-zero component of the Einstein tensor.
Mentz114 said:
The Vaidya metric is

[tex] ds^2=r^2d\Omega^2-2dudr-(1-2m(u)/r)du^2[/tex]
where u is a null coordinate.

Even though references say that [itex]u[/itex] is a null coordinate, I don't think that [itex]u[/itex] is a null coordinate. [itex]\partial_u[/itex] is the tangent vector to u-coordinate curves, and the above metric gives
[tex]g \left( \partial_u , \partial_u \right) = -\left(1-2m\left(u\right)/r\right).[/tex]
Consequently, [itex]u[/itex] is a timelike coordinate. The above metric also gives
[tex]g \left( \partial_r , \partial_r \right) = 0,[/tex]
and thus [itex]r[/itex] is a null coordinate.
Mentz114 said:
I get the Einstein tensor for dust, only G00 being non-zero.
[tex] G_{00}=\frac{2\,\left( \frac{d}{d\,u}\,m\right) }{{r}^{2}}[/tex]

This paper may be of interest arXiv:gr-qc/0609036v2 .

I'll see if I have the results for the Tolman metrics somewhere a bit later.

[edit]
After some calculation I found that the Einstein tensor calculated in a local frame basis is that of pure radiation. Confirmed in a textbook also. It seems strange that a change of basis can turn the dust tensor into radiation. But it certainly is the case.

When I use the (inverse) metric to raise indices, I calculate that
[tex]G^{rr}=\frac{2\,\left( \frac{d}{d\,u}\,m\right) }{{r}^{2}}[/tex]
is the only non-zero (contravariant) component of the Einstein tensor. Therefore, as a tensor ( not just components)
[tex]G = G^{rr} \partial_r \otimes \partial_r[/tex]

with [itex]\partial_r[/itex] a lightlike vector.
 
George and Bill_K,

there is some ambiguity about what is null in this metric. Joshi ( see below) just refers to 'null coordinates'.

According to Joshi in 'Global Aspects in Gravitation and cosmology' (Cambridge, 1993), the relevant tensors are those calculated in the frame basis, in which the Einstein tensor is that of pure radiation ( as I wrote above ).

[itex]T_{ij}=\sigma k_i k_j[/itex] ... [itex]\sigma[/itex] is defined to be the energy density of radiation measured as measured locally by an observer with four-velocity [itex]v^i[/itex]
I used the inverse of the co-tetrad
[tex] \Lambda=\pmatrix{-\frac{2\,m-2\,r}{\sqrt{3\,{r}^{2}-2\,r\,m}} & -\sqrt{\frac{r}{3\,r-2\,m}} & 0 & 0\cr -\sqrt{\frac{r}{3\,r-2\,m}} & -\frac{\sqrt{r}}{\sqrt{3\,r-2\,m}} & 0 & 0\cr 0 & 0 & r & 0\cr 0 & 0 & 0 & r\,sin\left( \theta\right) }[/tex]
to transform the holonomic G into the frame basis and got this - which is pure radiation in the Vaidya zone.

[tex] G_{ab}=\pmatrix{-\frac{2\,\left( \frac{d}{d\,u}\,m\right) }{2\,r\,m-3\,{r}^{2}} & \frac{2\,\left( \frac{d}{d\,u}\,m\right) }{2\,r\,m-3\,{r}^{2}} & 0 & 0\cr \frac{2\,\left( \frac{d}{d\,u}\,m\right) }{2\,r\,m-3\,{r}^{2}} & -\frac{2\,\left( \frac{d}{d\,u}\,m\right) }{2\,r\,m-3\,{r}^{2}} & 0 & 0\cr 0 & 0 & 0 & 0\cr 0 & 0 & 0 & 0}[/tex]
 
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Even though references say that u is a null coordinate, I don't think that u is a null coordinate. ∂u is the tangent vector to u-coordinate curves, and the above metric gives
g(∂u,∂u)=−(1−2m(u)/r). Consequently, u is a timelike coordinate.
Of course u is a null coordinate.
grr = 0, gur = gru = 1, guu = 1-2m/r.
grr = -1 + 2m/r, gur = gru = 1, guu = 0.
u u = guu = 0, so u = const is a null surface.
In fact for m = 0, you get Minkowski space in which the coordinate u = t-r is retarded null time. The Vaidya metric is an example of Kerr-Schild metric, defined to be flat space plus the square of a null vector: gμν = ημν + H kμkν.
 
  • #10
Bill_K said:
so u = const is a null surface.

Yes, and (I think) that the lightlike vector [itex]\partial_r[/itex] is normal to this null surface. Maybe my definition of null coordinate is non-standard. The character of coordinate is determined by letting the coordinate in question vary while holding all other coordinates constant. The character of the coordinate is given by the tangent vector to the resulting curve.
Bill_K said:
In fact for m = 0, you get Minkowski space in which the coordinate u = t-r is retarded null time. The Vaidya metric is an example of Kerr-Schild metric, defined to be flat space plus the square of a null vector: gμν = ημν + H kμkν.

If the coordinate transformation u = t - r and v = t + r is made, then u is a null coordinate. If the coordinate transformation u = t - r , r = r is made, then u is not a null coordinate. For more on this (possibly non-standard view), see

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=2714132#post2714132.

Unfortunately, I didn't follow up in this thread.
 

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