Vector Calculus Theorems - Duality Question

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the relationships between differential and integral forms of vector calculus theorems, particularly in the context of gradient, curl, and divergence theorems. Participants explore the potential for analogous theorems involving derivatives and the Laplacian, as well as the implications of these relationships in the context of Maxwell's equations.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests that certain vector identities can be viewed as differential analogues of classical integral theorems, similar to how Maxwell's equations can be expressed in both forms.
  • Another participant proposes a pattern for the derivative theorems, suggesting that they take the form of a derivative operator applied to a constant function resulting in zero.
  • There is a discussion about the equivalence of integral and differential forms of Maxwell's equations, with one participant emphasizing that the integral theorems are crucial for proving this equivalence.
  • One participant expresses a desire to find a more substantial theorem related to the Laplacian that fits within the established framework of the other theorems discussed.
  • Another participant notes that the derivative theorems are not equivalent to their integral counterparts, as the former are identities that can be verified to be zero, while the latter must hold true regardless of the integral values.
  • There is mention of Green's identities as relevant to the discussion of Laplacian integral theorems.
  • A participant introduces the concept of cohomologies in relation to constant functions and the zero function, suggesting a deeper mathematical structure underlying the discussion.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature of the relationships between the integral and derivative theorems, with some asserting that they are not dual to each other. There is no consensus on a specific theorem to include for the Laplacian, indicating ongoing exploration and uncertainty.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference various mathematical identities and theorems, but there are limitations in the discussion regarding the assumptions and definitions that underpin these identities. The exploration of the Laplacian's role remains unresolved.

bolbteppa
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I'm trying to go over some vector analysis using forms & kind of noticed what look like random vector identities are more appropriately thought of, to me at least, as differential analogues of the classical integral theorems in the way Maxwell's equations can be cast in differential & integral form. However I'm missing a theorem:


Integral Gradient Theorem: \smallint_{\vec{a}}^{\vec{b}} \nabla f \cdot d \vec{r} = f(\vec{b}) - f(\vec{a})

Integral Curl Theorem: \smallint_S (\nabla \times \vec{F}) \cdot \hat{n} dS = \smallint_{\partial S} \vec{F} \cdot d \vec{r}

Integral Divergence Theorem: \smallint_V \nabla \cdot \vec{F} dV = \smallint_{\partial V} \vec{F} \cdot \hat{n} dS

---

Derivative Gradient Theorem:

Derivative Curl Theorem: \nabla \times (\nabla \phi) = 0

Derivative Divergence Theorem: \nabla \cdot (\nabla \times \vec{F}) = 0

---

Any ideas as to what I should put in there?

Also, could one bluff an appropriate differential & integral theorem for the scalar or vector laplacians?
 
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Well I'm not really sure, but by looking at the Derivative Curl and Divergence theorems, the pattern seems to be:

Derivative [operator] Theorem: [operator]( some expression ) = 0,

where (some expression) is replaced by something that guarantees the right-hand integral is 0 (for any general F of this form) in the above 3 equations.
For the curl and the divergence theorems, the form of \vec{F} is respectively a gradient and a curl.

The most obvious continuation (for the gradient theorem) would be the constant vector functions, since f(\vec{b})-f(\vec{a}) = 0 then. So my guess would be that the Derivative gradient theorem is:
\nabla (const) = \vec{0} which is fairly trivial.

By the way, I don't think the derivative [operator] theorems are equivalent to their integral counterparts, because the derivative theorems are simply vector identities that can be checked from the definition to be 0, while the integral theorems must work even if the integrals are not 0.
EDIT: This page has a lot of identities. Maybe you'll find a more satisfactory choice here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vector_calculus_identities
 
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Maybe you are thinking of Maxwell's equations in their integral and differential versions (which are equivalent).
But they are proven equivalent because of the integral theorems (Green's, Stokes's and Divergence Theorems), not the 3 other identities. Or at least, for the major part of the proof.

Oh and for the laplacian integral theorems, I think Green's identities are relevant.
 
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One moves between the differential & integral form of Maxwell's equations via Stokes & Gauss, so on face value if you can't think of the theorems in my post as dual to each other you can't think of the differential & integral form of Maxwell's equations as dual either right?

Apparently either a constant function or the zero function work, depending on whether you're thinking in terms of cohomologies or reduced cohomologies :-p I was just hoping there was something a bit more substantial you could put in it's place I guess...

If we could find a way to fit the Laplacian into all of this it would be really nice, but I don't see what to do with it right now...
 
This a a problem in the traditional vector calculus. We have many variations of each formula.
Your first three are examples of the fundamental theorem of calculus (Stokes theorem)
$$\int_{\partial \Omega} \omega=\int_\Omega \mathrm{d}\omega$$
The other two are examples of exact forms being closed
$$\mathrm{d}^2\omega=0$$
you can dress it as an integral if you like
$$\int_{\partial \Omega} \mathrm{d}\omega=\int_{\partial^2 \Omega} \omega=\int_{ \Omega} \mathrm{d}^2\omega=0$$
I do not think of these as dual because the second set have one more derivative.
That is the reason there are two instead of three.
The Laplacian arises form
$$\Delta=d\delta+\delta d$$
where δ is the adjoint of d
 

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