Velocity of propagation in lossy media

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    Propagation Velocity
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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the velocity of propagation of electromagnetic waves in lossy media, particularly focusing on the application of specific formulas for good conductors like copper. Participants explore the implications of these formulas and their consistency across different contexts and references.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents a formula for the attenuation (alfa) and phase (beta) constants in lossy media, noting its validity for good conductors and its application in calculating skin effect.
  • The same participant questions the velocity of propagation derived from a specific book, contrasting it with the commonly accepted velocity in copper transmission lines.
  • Another participant clarifies that beta corresponds to the wavenumber, linking it to the familiar wave equation involving wavelength and frequency.
  • A third participant defines the complex propagation constant in lossy media and explains the relationship between the attenuation constant and phase constant.
  • One participant challenges the characterization of copper as a "lossy" conductor, suggesting that the behavior of waves in such materials is misunderstood.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the characterization of copper and the implications of the formulas discussed. There is no consensus on the interpretation of the velocity of propagation in this context, and the discussion remains unresolved.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the complexity of the propagation constants in lossy media, the dependence on definitions of lossiness, and the implications of skin depth, which may not be fully addressed in the formulas presented.

pboric
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regarding plane waves theory and their properties, for lossy media (conductors) in different books appear a formula that represent alfa y beta constants in the followig way:

alfa = beta = root square( pi*frequency*mu*sigma) valid for good
conductors (high loss material)

I have checked this formula in different books and it works well, and
it's used further to calculate skin effect as well

My question arises from one conclusion derived from the formula, that I
found in just a specific book (David Cheng's Fundamentals of
engineering electromagnetics).
In that book the author says:
velocity of propagation = omega / beta
For copper (good conductor):
sigma = 5.8 * 10 exp 7
mu = 4 *pi *10 exp -7
and therefore v = 720 m/sec. @ f = 3 Mhz.

so the velocity of propagation is << c

I am confused with the final result, because I've checked the formula, and the math in the example is right, but I know that in a copper transmission line, the velocity of propagation is about 2/3 c = 200,000 km/sec.
The formula appears in different books, but the specific example just
appears in Cheng's book
I think the application for the example is valid in a different situation,
but I can't figure out which
 
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I think beta here is what other books refer to as the wavenumber
k=2*pi/lambda
Since omega=2*pi*f, the formula is actually the familiar one
c=lambda*f
 
in lossy media, beta is the phase constant, and alfa is the attenuation constant.
the complex propagation constant gamma is defined = alfa + j * beta
in this case the wavenumber k is complex as well, and it is related to gamma by
gamma = j *k

for lossless media, alfa = 0 and there are no losses at all, just phase change (beta) and in that special case (alfa = 0), we get:
gamma = j*beta = j*k
so beta =k
 
Copper is not a "lossy" conductor".
In a lossy conductor the wave goes (almost) nowhere slowly.
That is why it is called skin depth.
 

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