Very confused about surface tension

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of surface tension, specifically addressing the definitions and implications of surface tension in relation to forces acting on a needle placed on a liquid surface. Participants explore the mathematical representation of surface tension and its effects on objects interacting with the liquid surface.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Technical explanation, Conceptual clarification, Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions why the formula for surface tension is γ = F/2l instead of F/l, suggesting a misunderstanding of the number of surfaces involved.
  • Another participant asserts that there are indeed two surfaces contributing to the force, referencing a figure that illustrates this point.
  • Concerns are raised about the outward force exerted by surface tension on a needle, with one participant noting a perceived contradiction between this force and the introductory explanation of surface tension being inward only.
  • Some participants propose thinking in terms of surface area rather than just force direction, indicating that surface tension works to minimize surface area.
  • There is a discussion about the effects of compressing the liquid and how it relates to the forces acting on the needle, with one participant suggesting that the force is not solely due to compression.
  • Clarifications are made regarding the nature of the forces acting on the surface, with one participant likening the surface tension to a taut rope and explaining the tangential nature of the force.
  • One participant expresses confusion over the diagrams presented, indicating that they may misrepresent the forces at play.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the interpretation of surface tension and its effects. Multiple competing views remain regarding the mathematical representation and the nature of forces acting on the needle.

Contextual Notes

Some participants note that diagrams may inaccurately depict the forces involved, leading to confusion about the nature of surface tension and its effects.

dEdt
Messages
286
Reaction score
2
See link: http://www3.interscience.wiley.com:8100/legacy/college/cutnell/0471713988/ste/ste.pdf. When defining surface tension, the article makes reference to a C-shaped apparatus. Why is γ = F/2l and not F/l? It says something about there being two surfaces, but it seems to me that because there's only one surface touching the wire, it should be F/l. Second question: In example one, surface tension is applying a force outwards on the needle. But based on the introductory explanation of surface tension, I thought surface tension was only inwards. I can see why compressing the liquid will produce some outward force against the needle, but why would that equal γL? It seems like those are two different phenomena.

I am obviously well aware that I probably have a deep missunderstanding of what's actually going on. The way I see it, any molecule on the surface will be 'sucked' in, and that's the force which is pulling the wire in in the first question. Is this at all correct?

Thanks a lot!
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Physics news on Phys.org
dEdt said:
It says something about there being two surfaces, but it seems to me that because there's only one surface touching the wire, it should be F/l.

There are two sides.

I can see why compressing the liquid will produce some outward force against the needle, but why would that equal γL? It seems like those are two different phenomena.

Think in terms of surface area, rather than directions. The surface tension is the force working to minimize the surface area. When you place a needle on the surface, it's "stretching" the surface, increasing the surface area. The force isn't from compressing the liquid- Pour soap in it to disrupt the surface tension and the needle will sink, even though the compressibility of the water doesn't change at all.
 
dEdt said:
Why is γ = F/2l and not F/l? It says something about there being two surfaces, but it seems to me that because there's only one surface touching the wire, it should be F/l.
The sheet of liquid has two surfaces. See Fig 3, which calls them the upper and lower surfaces.

Second question: In example one, surface tension is applying a force outwards on the needle. But based on the introductory explanation of surface tension, I thought surface tension was only inwards. I can see why compressing the liquid will produce some outward force against the needle, but why would that equal γL? It seems like those are two different phenomena.
The surface is always under tension, just like a piece of taut rope. (Imagine it as a stretched rubber sheet.) The tension is always tangential to the surface. The needle rests on the surface (which bends around it), and the surface exerts a tangential force, which in this case has a vertical component that balances the weight of the needle.

Part of the confusion may be the diagrams in Fig 2, which are inaccurate. Fig 2a implies that the inside of the liquid is under tension, when it's really under compression; Fig 2b implies that there's a net inward force at the surface, which would produce an inward acceleration.
 
Doc Al said:
The tension is always tangential to the surface.

I didn't realize that. Fig. 2 made me believe that force was perpendicular to the surface, but now I see why that's wrong. Thanks a lot.
 

Similar threads

Replies
39
Views
3K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
3K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 23 ·
Replies
23
Views
3K
Replies
6
Views
3K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
6K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
4K
Replies
1
Views
3K
  • · Replies 10 ·
Replies
10
Views
2K