Violation of Newtons third Law and conservation of momentum

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the implications of Newton's third law and the conservation of momentum in the context of high-energy photon interactions and quantum electrodynamics (QED). Participants explore the validity of these principles when considering the creation and annihilation of particle pairs, specifically electron-positron pairs, from photons.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant describes a scenario where three high-energy photons convert into electron-positron pairs, suggesting that one electron exerts a force on another without a reciprocal force due to the timing of electric field interactions.
  • Another participant argues that Newton's third law does not hold in classical electrodynamics and suggests that momentum conservation should be maintained while discarding the third law.
  • A different participant challenges the initial analysis, stating that electric fields in QED are not described as direct interactions but rather through field theory and perturbation methods.
  • Another participant points out that the proposed Feynman diagram and thought experiment are not physically possible, emphasizing that such processes cannot conserve 4-momentum and require at least two photons to create a free electron-positron pair.
  • There is a reiteration of the impossibility of a single photon annihilating into an electron-positron pair, noting the necessity of a virtual electron to mediate interactions.
  • One participant acknowledges the feedback received regarding the correctness of the Feynman diagram arrows.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express disagreement regarding the application of Newton's third law and the conservation of momentum in the described scenarios. Multiple competing views remain on the validity of the initial thought experiment and the interpretation of interactions in QED.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in the initial thought experiment, particularly regarding the conservation of 4-momentum and the requirements for photon interactions. There are unresolved aspects related to the correct representation of Feynman diagrams.

Danyon
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Three High energy Photons spontaneously convert into electron positron pairs, The electron on the left marked A is created and and destroyed within a short interval, sending an electric field burst towards electron B shortly after it's created, just enough so that Electrons B's electric field does not have enough time to reach and interact with electron A's, meaning that A exerts a force on B without B exerting a force on A

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Newton's third law does not hold even in classical electrodynamics. You are right that momentum conservation is a consequence of the third law in Newtonian physics. The correct generalization is to discard the third law and keep momentum conservation.

 
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Danyon said:
sending an electric field burst towards electron B shortly after it's created

In QED electric fields are not viewed that way - rather its described in terms of the field theory of electrons, the field theory of photons as the quanta of the em field, and their interaction which, if i remember correctly, is treated as a perturbation.

Beyond that I will have to leave it to those more conversant in QED - but what you wrote above is not a correct analysis.

Thanks
Bill
 
Your Feynman diagram (and, by extension, your thought experiment) is not physically possible, even though the basic observation about Newton's third law is accurate. A photon converting into an electron-positron pair is fine as an internal vertex, but such a process cannot conserve 4-momentum and so as a complete interaction has amplitude zero. You need a minimum of two photons to produce a free electron-positron pair. Similarly, an electron-positron pair cannot annihilate into a single photon. In both cases, you need a virtual electron to mediate the interaction.

Also, BTW, your arrows are not drawn correctly. One arrow flows into the vertex, the other flows out.
 
VantagePoint72 said:
Your Feynman diagram (and, by extension, your thought experiment) is not physically possible, even though the basic observation about Newton's third law is accurate. A photon converting into an electron-positron pair is fine as an internal vertex, but such a process cannot conserve 4-momentum and so as a complete interaction has amplitude zero. You need a minimum of two photons to produce a free electron-positron pair. Similarly, an electron-positron pair cannot annihilate into a single photon. In both cases, you need a virtual electron to mediate the interaction.

Also, BTW, your arrows are not drawn correctly. One arrow flows into the vertex, the other flows out.

I see, thankyou
 

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