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PerpStudent

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- Thread starter PerpStudent
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In summary, virtual particles are a helpful way to simplify the calculations necessary for quantum field theory. They are real particles that have been created in the past and will continue to exist until detected.

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PerpStudent

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Dali

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Virtual particles is a theoretical concept that helps us make mental images about what goes on in interactions. When calculating probabilities for different outcomes in for example particle collisions, quantum field theory gives us very complicated and messy equations to solve. The only practical way to solve them is via perturbation theory, and still just writing down the correct integrals for each term in the expansion is quite tricky math. However, Feynman found some great simplified rules to find the correct integrals by drawing simple pictures of "virtual particles". Finding the right formulas in this way and solving them gives the right answers when we compare to measurement of real colliding particles. So from this comes the concept that the interaction is mediated by exchange of virtual particles. But, again, what anyone sees or detects is always (and will always be) real particles. It is worth to note also that an exact solution to the full quantum field equations would require infinitely many terms in the perturbation expansion, each with more and more virtual particles. And this is just to solve for one probability of two real particles colliding.

So remembering that virtual particles just is an aid in difficult calculations, they can be useful to "explain" what goes on in the equations in a simplified way. People often say that the force between particles is mediated by virtual particles, but strictly speaking this is just a simplified picture of a more complicated reality. Now, the picture works extremely well in predicting real outcomes, including high energy collisions where several new (real) particles are created. So they are clearly a good picture. I would however still say it is doubtful to claim that virtual particles "exist" since we can never expect to measure one directly.

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Bill_K

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No Dali, you have it exactly backwards.No one has even seen/measured/detected a virtual particle. All particles ever detected are real particles. That's a clear difference! :-)

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Dali

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Bill_K said:A real particle is a solution to the source-free wave equation, created in the infinite past and persisting undisturbed until the infinite future. It's a completely idealized concept.

Hmm, of course strictly speaking you are right. My apologies for confusing the subject, it was a while ago I read my QFT!

I was thinking that normally the in- and outgoing particles in a Feynman diagram are considered to be on-shell (i.e. "real"), but as you point out that is an approximation since they also have a finite lifetime if they are detected. So the difference between "real" and "virtual" is not as clear-cut as I tried to make it. Still, treating in- and outgoing particles as real (on-shell) is usually a very, very good approximation.

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Dadface

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Sonderval

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Feynman writes

Of course any photon that has a physical effect may be considered as a virtual photon since it is not observed unless it interacts, so that observed photons never really have ω=± k. There are, however, no difficulties in passing to the limit; physically, we know of photons that come from the moon, or the sun, for which the fractional difference between ω and k is very, very small.

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Zz.

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danR

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ZapperZ said:

Zz.

I was thinking the same thing, and I think Dali's first answer was near enough to the question.

Real particles can be detected, in the normal sense of the idea 'detection', by detectors, from massive CERN detectors to rod and cone photon-detectors in the eye.

Virtual particles are more detected by balanced Feynman diagram books. Some people have argued that's the only reality they have.

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PerpStudent

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.In physics, a virtual particle is a transient fluctuation that exhibits many of the characteristics of an ordinary particle, but that exists for a limited time. The concept of virtual particles arises in perturbation theory of quantum field theory where interactions between ordinary particles are described in terms of exchanges of virtual particles

and:

Yet, Hawking radiation is caused by the spontaneous creation of virtual particles -- as a consequence of the uncertainty principle -- that are separated by the event horizon and -- I guess -- become "real." Am I missing something?The term is somewhat loose and vaguely defined, in that it refers to the view that the world is made up of "real particles": it is not; rather, "real particles" are better understood to be excitations of the underlying quantum fields. Virtual particles are also excitations of the underlying fields, but are "temporary" in the sense that they appear in calculations of interactions, but never as asymptotic states or indices to the scattering matrix.

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friend

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The distinction between real and virtual particles makes sense only on Feynman diagrams. Internal lines of a Feynman diagram describe virtual particles, while external lines describe real particles. That's all!

Methods in quantum field theory which do not use Feynman diagrams do not use the concept of virtual particles.

Some popular explanations of Hawking radiation use virtual particles, but such explanations are not based on any actual calculations. The actual calculations of Hawking radiation do not use Feynman diagrams and thus they do not involve virtual particles.

Methods in quantum field theory which do not use Feynman diagrams do not use the concept of virtual particles.

Some popular explanations of Hawking radiation use virtual particles, but such explanations are not based on any actual calculations. The actual calculations of Hawking radiation do not use Feynman diagrams and thus they do not involve virtual particles.

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If so, then why real particles are called "real"? What is so real about them?Bill_K said:No Dali, you have it exactly backwards.All particles ever detected are virtual particles. A real particle is a solution to the source-free wave equation, created in the infinite past and persisting undisturbed until the infinite future. It's a completely idealized concept. Any particle we detect is a solution to the wave equation with source present. It has had a finite existence, from the point it was created or last interacted, until the point at which we detect it. It is slightly off the mass shell, and therefore virtual.

A more meaningful answer is that the real particles are the detected ones, but theoretical description of real particles involves an approximation according to which they can be described by the source-free wave equation in infinite past and infinite future.

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friend

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friend said:

I suppose, then, that if real particles were to be given momentum changes after collisions with virtual particle, then that momentum change would have to be given back so that those virtual particles could pop back out of existence, right?

Virtual particles are particles that are not directly observable, but are instead predicted by theories and equations in particle physics. They are thought to constantly appear and disappear in the vacuum of space, and play a crucial role in understanding the behavior of real particles.

Real particles are particles that can be directly observed and measured in experiments. They make up the fundamental building blocks of matter and are described by the Standard Model of particle physics.

The main difference between virtual particles and real particles is that virtual particles are not directly observable and have a fleeting existence, while real particles can be directly measured and have a longer lifetime. Additionally, virtual particles are constantly fluctuating and do not obey the laws of conservation, while real particles follow strict conservation laws.

Virtual particles are a mathematical concept used in particle physics, and their existence in reality is a subject of debate among scientists. Some believe that they are simply a mathematical tool used to explain the behavior of real particles, while others propose that they may have some physical manifestation.

Virtual particles play a crucial role in the behavior of real particles, as they mediate interactions between particles and can even influence the mass and charge of particles. They are also responsible for the phenomenon of quantum tunneling, where particles can pass through barriers that they would not normally be able to overcome.

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