A Volovik vs Witten vs Wen, etc.

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  • #51
Why don't you take a look at his book or some of his papers?
 
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  • #52
Demystifier said:
Why don't you take a look at his book or some of his papers?

Ok. Will try to read them again. I mostly read discouraging comments about Volovik and maybe many physicists avoid it. So I don't continue after a dozen pages. I tend to avoid nonpromising approach like Gerard 'thooft superdeterministic Cellular Automaton theory of QM. etc.

"I believe Wen would like emergent fermions, while Volovik wouldn't mind fundamental fermions. Neither is promising, though both are inspiring and worth studying. I think AdS/CFT is a working example for emergent gravity in some universes (not ours) that is very much in the spirit of condensed matter. So we have examples of emergent gravity (AdS/CFT) and emergent QED and QCD (Levin and Wen), but no examples of emergent chiral fermions (yet?)."

Reference: https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/what-are-the-differences-between-volovik-wen-theories.348431/
 
  • #53
Demystifier said:
Why don't you take a look at his book or some of his papers?

I recalled now. I actually had Volovok book "The Universe in a Helium Droplet".
James Bjorken wrote the preface which discouraged me:

"It is often said that the problem of the very small cosmological constant is
the greatest mystery in cosmology and in particle physics, and that no one has
any good ideas on how to solve it. The contents of this book make a lie of that
statement. The material in this monograph builds upon a candidate solution to
the problem, often dubbed `emergence'. It is a solution so simple and direct that it can be stated here in this foreword. Visualize the vacuum of particle physics as if it were a cold quantum liquid in equilibrium. Then its pressure must vanish, unless it is a droplet - in which case there will be surface corrections scaling as an inverse power of the droplet size. But vacuum dark pressure scales with the vacuum dark energy, and thus is measured by the cosmological constant, which indeed scales as the inverse square of the `size' of the universe. The problem is
`solved'.

But there is some bad news with the good. Photons, gravitons, and gluons
must be viewed as collective excitations of the purported liquid, with dispersion
laws which at high energies are not expected to be relativistic. The equivalence
principle and gauge invariance are probably inexact. Many other such ramications exist, as described in this book. And experimental constraints on such deviant behavior are extremely strong. Nevertheless, it is in my opinion not out of the question that the diffulties can eventually be overcome. If they are, it will mean that many sacrosanct beliefs held by almost all contemporary theoretical particle physicists and cosmologists will at the least be severely challenged.

This book summarizes the pioneering research of its author, Grisha Volovik,
and provides a splendid guide into this mostly unexplored wilderness of emergent particle physics and cosmology. So far it is not respectable territory, so there is danger to the young researcher venturing within - working on it may be detrimental to a successful career track. But together with the danger will be high adventure and, if the ideas turn out to be correct, great rewards. I salute here those who take the chance and embark upon the adventure. At the very least they will be rewarded by acquiring a deep understanding of much of the lore of condensed matter physics. And, with some luck, they will also be rewarded by uncovering a radically di®erent interpretation of the profound problems involving the structure of the very large and of the very small.
Stanford Linear Accelerator Center James D. Bjorken
August 2002"

First he said "The material in this monograph builds upon a candidate solution to
the problem, often dubbed `emergence'. It is a solution so simple and direct that
it can be stated here in this foreword. Visualize the vacuum of particle physics as if it were a cold quantum liquid in equilibrium...".

We know our vacuum is not a cold quantum liquid in equilibrium, is it? So what's the point of writing about something that didn't exist. This was the reason I asked what really was Volovik version of the atoms in the vacuum where our particles were the phonons. It couldn't really be cold quantum liquid, is it?

Second, he wrote "So far it is not respectable territory, so there is danger to the young researcher venturing within.."

So James Bjorken already gave such a negative tone in the first page. Also he made it sound like it was only to solve the cosmological constant problem.

Has anyone read the book besides Demystifier? What are others views of it? It will take me 2 years to read it. Is the "cold quantum liquid" supposed to be literal? Has it not been falsified already? Does this fall under the subject of Subquantum Physics?
 
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  • #54
lucas_ said:
We know our vacuum is not a cold quantum liquid in equilibrium, is it?
Why do you think so? We do not know whether it is true or not at the fundamental level. Of course, it is not so according to our Standard Model description, but the idea is precisely that the Standard Model description is just an effective theory not valid at the fundamental level.

lucas_ said:
Second, he wrote "So far it is not respectable territory, so there is danger to the young researcher venturing within.."
That is true, but your own ideas about certain things ( :wink: ) are even less respectable territory, so you are the last person for whom I expect to be discouraged by not being in a respectable territory.
 
  • #55
Demystifier said:
Why do you think so? We do not know whether it is true or not at the fundamental level. Of course, it is not so according to our Standard Model description, but the idea is precisely that the Standard Model description is just an effective theory not valid at the fundamental level.

So it's not yet refuted. Ok. I'll read the whole book then. I thought our vacuum was not shown to be a cold quantum liquid already because when you talk to relativity people. They would tell your the entire quantum vacuum is Lorentz invariance and not a medium or with turtles. So it may turtles all the way.

That is true, but your own ideas about certain things ( :wink: ) are even less respectable territory, so you are the last person for whom I expect to be discouraged by not being in a respectable territory.

The quote was just shown that it was not popular. So I thought some parts were refuted already. String theory was really still in infancy so many ideas still possible (but LHC already constrained so many).
 
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  • #56
About this whole idea of Lorentz invariance thing or relativity being emergent. I'd like to hear ideas from researchers in computer simulations who also need to use Lorentz invariance in the simulation or world building. Without such preference. The simulation occupants can learn of the limitations in the program? I hope the Universe as Simulation researchers (followers of Tegmark for example) or proponents can comment a thing or two about the advantage (if any) the need of Lorentz invariance in the program.
 
  • #57
lucas_ said:
I thought our vacuum was not shown to be a cold quantum liquid already because when you talk to relativity people. They would tell your the entire quantum vacuum is Lorentz invariance and not a medium or with turtles.
They confuse the map (Standard Model) with the territory.
 
  • #58
Demystifier said:
They confuse the map (Standard Model) with the territory.

If there would be evidence for it (of course I have to look for evidence), what is the best catchy term for the new physics if it would be valid (or even to refer to the subfield for discussions with physicists).. is it...

1. Subquantum physics? (does "subquantum" makes sense?)
2. Super Quantum Physics (Super since it's fundamental?)
3. Sub-vacuum physics?
4. Super-vacuum physics?
5. De-Renormalization Group Physics?
6. Neo-Ether Theory (Do all physicists understood neo-ether mean something not related or have already encompassed the result of the Michelson-Morley experiment?)
7. Witten-Ether theory (since Witten is the leader of all physicists?)
8. Vacuum Engineering physics
9. Non-Gauge, Non-Lorentzian Scalar Physics?
10. Can you recommend any good catchy term to refer to the concept? Anyone else?
 
  • #59
Among the offered options, I think 6. describes it the best. But unfortunately the notion of "ether" is often associated with crackpottery, so if you want to avoid such a negative connotation, you can use a more straight notion, perhaps effective theory physics or emergent physics, suggesting that the theories that we currently know are effective theories that emerge from as yet unknown more fundamental physics.
 
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  • #60
Demystifier said:
Among the offered options, I think 6. describes it the best. But unfortunately the notion of "ether" is often associated with crackpottery, so if you want to avoid such a negative connotation, you can use a more straight notion, perhaps effective theory physics or emergent physics, suggesting that the theories that we currently know are effective theories that emerge from as yet unknown more fundamental physics.
What is more believable in the current Ph.D theoretical physics community: the effective field theory where lorentz invariance, etc is emergent or the concept of Shadow matter in E8xE8' heterotic superstring theory?

In present belief about E8xE8' heterotic superstring theory. Only gravity acts between superstrings of ordinary matter and shadow matter due to the simplistic unproven assumption that the former are singlet representations of E8' and that the latter are singlet representations of E8, so that the non-abelian gauge fields acting on one type do not act on the other type.

The consequence is that none of the 496 gauge fields of E8xE8' can cross the gap between the two 10-dimensional branes predicted by this type of heterotic superstring theory.

But note heterotic superstring theory is not M-theory but only but one of its approximations. What if other fields existing in the 15 higher dimensions outside these branes play no part in the interactions between superstrings. What if these other fields can couple superstrings of shadow and ordinary matter, both of which extend in this higher-dimensional space beyond 11-dimensional supergravity space-time. Is this still possible? They can maintain global cohesion between the shadow matter and physical matter.

If we will let physicists vote. Would they choose the above possibility of E8xE8' shadow matter (with possible global cohesion with normal matter) or effective field theory where lorentz invariance is just the emergent (whereas E8xE8' has fundamental lorentz invariance)?
 
  • #61
Lets suppose Volovik and Wen are right. Can their many-body systems be approximations of a more fundumental QFT ?
 
  • #62
Fractal matter said:
Lets suppose Volovik and Wen are right. Can their many-body systems be approximations of a more fundumental QFT ?
In principle, yes. In principle, we could even have an infinite regress: many-body system emerging from a QFT, which emerges from a many-body system, which emerges from QFT, which ...
 
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  • #63
Demystifier said:
In principle, yes. In principle, we could even have an infinite regress: many-body system emerging from a QFT, which emerges from a many-body system, which emerges from QFT, which ...
As i understand it, the critical speed in that more fundamental QFT will be even faster and one gets usual criticism.

I wonder if QM and QFT may correspond to particular scales(approximations) of deterministic dynamic fractal system. I have a sense it does. For example in renormalization group Schröder's equation is used, which is said to be suitable to encoding self-similarity. Quote from wikipedia: "Iterated functions are objects of study in ... fractals, dynamical systems ... and renormalization group physics."

Giulio Prisco shares the view to some extent: https://turingchurch.net/down-in-the-fractal-depths-of-quantum-matter-and-space-time-fe0c83b3516

I'd like to know if Ervin Goldfain and Gianluca Calcagni pursue the same idea.

https://www.academia.edu/22396275/R...ndom_fractal_topology_in_quantum_field_theory

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/230802696_Introduction_to_Multifractional_Spacetimes
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/301842283_Lorentz_violations_in_multifractal_spacetimes
 
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  • #64
Fractal matter said:
As i understand it, the critical speed in that more fundamental QFT will be even faster and one gets usual criticism.
If more fundamental QFT is not relativistic, i.e. if its action is not Lorentz invariant, then there does need to be a critical speed at all.
 
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  • #65
Demystifier said:
If more fundamental QFT is not relativistic, i.e. if its action is not Lorentz invariant, then there does need to be a critical speed at all.
For observers restricted to using sound clocks and rods the action will be Lorentz-invariant(arXiv:1612.06870v2). So it seems the symmetries of the action describe the qualities of the observer.

Demystifier said:
we could even have an infinite regress: many-body system emerging from a QFT, which emerges from a many-body system, which emerges from QFT, which ...
I cherish this view on qm together with superdeterminism. Also Wolfram's rewriting rules are interesting in this context. Is this a bunch of effective qft's(and corresponding observers of different types) each possessing its own symmetries? Or is the word effective inappropriate, because there are different qft's/spacetimes involved? Can this be considered as a single qft? What's different, it seems, are types of observers.
 
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  • #66
lucas_ said:
Is it Volovik using quantum mechanics as more fundamental to QFT?
At the very end of his book Volovik says that (something like) QFT can be derived from his superfluid vacuum theory but QM is still fundamental, so yes. He also says that further research could also explain the origin of QM: “However, in exploring the quantum liquids with Fermi points, we are probably on the right track toward understanding the properties of the quantum vacuum and the origin of quantum mechanics.”

Besides that, I’m resurrecting this thread to ask this: I have the impression that something analogous to string theory could be also derived in Volovik’s approach. OK different number of dimensions but perhaps the superfluid vacuum could be described by a QFT with a string dual? Now this would be an intriguing unification! Any pointers?

Edited: this seems a good pointer:
https://www.nature.com/articles/478302a

And a book:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/1107080088/?tag=pfamazon01-20

Will post others.
 
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  • #67
Demystifier said:
Essentially, because I don't like superdeterminism. Superdeterminism says that correlations are not due to laws of physics, but are contingent properties of special initial conditions. In this way, superdeterminism can nominally explain anything but actually explains nothing.
If Nicolas Gisin is right then superdeterminism is trivially true BUT the world is NON-deterministic!

https://www.quantamagazine.org/does...from-a-century-old-approach-to-math-20200407/
 
  • #68
Demystifier said:
Among the offered options, I think 6. describes it the best. But unfortunately the notion of "ether" is often associated with crackpottery, so if you want to avoid such a negative connotation, you can use a more straight notion, perhaps effective theory physics or emergent physics, suggesting that the theories that we currently know are effective theories that emerge from as yet unknown more fundamental physics.
Superfluid vacuum physics seems good to me.
 
  • #69
Giulio Prisco said:
If Nicolas Gisin is right then superdeterminism is trivially true BUT the world is NON-deterministic!

https://www.quantamagazine.org/does...from-a-century-old-approach-to-math-20200407/
The laws of physics imply that the passage of time is an illusion.

No need to read any further, "time is an illusion".
If the laws of physics imply that, would you like to change them?
I asked if the poster Creator still posts in PF once, but it seems he had stopped posting.
We can ask him/her... :oldbiggrin:
 
  • #70
MathematicalPhysicist said:
No need to read any further, "time is an illusion".
If the laws of physics imply that, would you like to change them?
I asked if the poster Creator still posts in PF once, but it seems he had stopped posting.
We can ask him/her... :oldbiggrin:
The quotes are formatted in a way that gives the impression that I said "The laws of physics imply that the passage of time is an illusion," but I didn't say and don't think that!
 
  • #71
Giulio Prisco said:
The quotes are formatted in a way that gives the impression that I said "The laws of physics imply that the passage of time is an illusion," but I didn't say and don't think that!
Of course not, it's written in the first line in the link you gave.
 
  • #72
I am very much interested in the subject. My view is very well described in the article by Giulio Prisco - "Down in the fractal depths of quantum matter and space-time". The world, it seems, can be described as infinite series of approximations/effective fields.

I'm convinced, physicists are able to derive the speed of light, using the same methods they use, when they derive a speed of sound in a medium. Quote:
'Inside such a vacuum structure, the speed of light would not be the critical speed for vacuum constituents and propagating signals. The natural scenario would be the superbradyon (superluminal preon) pattern we postulated in 1995, with a new critical speed cs much larger than the speed of light c just as c is much larger than the speed of sound.' - Luis Gonzalez-Mestres.

There is an inherent preferred frame of reference in that scheme, as far as I understand it. It seems plausible to me, there is an infinity of 'vacua', each possessing different critical speed c1 << c2 << c3 << ... I wonder, if there is a possible connection to fractal geometry.
 
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