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p764rds

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Does Quantum Mechanics forbid some type of Von Neumann machine for the Universe?

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- Thread starter p764rds
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In summary, the conversation discusses the concept of a Von Neumann machine for the universe and its potential use of quantum mechanics. It is suggested that DNA and RNA function as a form of information storage and implementation, similar to a classic Von Neumann machine. There is also discussion of the possibility of a universal Von Neumann machine that utilizes quantum states for increased computing power. However, some argue that the idea of a Von Neumann machine for the universe is limited to science fiction. The conversation also touches on the potential applications of quantum logic and the limitations of simulating quantum mechanics on traditional computers. The concept of a non-deterministic Turing machine is also mentioned in relation to quantum mechanics.

- #1

p764rds

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Does Quantum Mechanics forbid some type of Von Neumann machine for the Universe?

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- #2

debra

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- #3

p764rds

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debra said:

Yes, the universe manages to create dna, which indeed, is a powerful information storage device and implementation method similar in some respects to a classic Von Neumann machine. Does DNA use quantum states or is it purely topology of chemical compounds to store information? - its a little out of my field.

I would guess that the universal Von Neumann machine - if it exists- would be in some ways similar to the dna model except it could make use of quantum states more than chemical compounds. In fact quantum superposition would give it increased power compared to classical methods.

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QuantumBend

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No this no sense. Von Neumann is computer not dna - look at theory.

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p764rds

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QuantumBend said:No this no sense. Von Neumann is computer not dna - look at theory.

Well, the basic principle of implementing an active system that uses data and algorithms can be done in many ways and the universe is well capable of it - as dna proves. Quantum ways would be highly effective because of superposition leveraging the computing power - look at theory.

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Coin

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There are two different things out there which are commonly described by the term "Von Neumann Machine".

One is the sort of generic idea of a self-replicating machine, which often is called a "Von Neumann Machine" because Von Neumann once gave a lecture proposing such a thing.

The other is the idea of a machine or computer with a Von Neumann Architecture; such machines sometimes get referred to as "Von Neumann Machines". The Von Neumann Architecture refers to the idea of a computer which is structured in such a way that there is a memory where a stored program co-resides with storage space; and a CPU-type unit which operates on this memory. Basically all computers which are built in the real world are Von Neumann machines in this sense.

Some of the comments in this thread seem to be referring to one type of "Von Neumann Machine", others to the other. What kind of "Von Neumann machine" are we talking about? And what would it mean for there to be a Von Neumann machine "for the universe"?

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Emanresu56

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I'm surprised no one has yet mentionedhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laplace%27s_demon"

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p764rds

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and mention of Laplaces Demon.

Because this is a quantum physics section we can only really discuss that, except

to say basic sub-atomic particle types (there are not so many) and fields can be

mathematically modeled as algorithmic templates with properties and behaviors

accessible from, and to, 3/4 space. As indeed, 3/4 space itself. Then each particle becomes an 'object' of its type template with its own phenomology as defined by its template and properties.

Interaction behaviours and field dynamics are then fully defined in the templates.

This would then provide a comprehensible ontology for such phenomena as entanglement

correlations, distributed wave functions in real physical space, and such things as virtual photons in electron-proton interactions.

- #9

QuantumBend

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p764rds said:

and mention of Laplaces Demon.

Because this is a quantum physics section we can only really discuss that, except

to say basic sub-atomic particle types (there are not so many) and fields can be

mathematically modeled as algorithmic templates with properties and behaviors

accessible from, and to, 3/4 space. As indeed, 3/4 space itself. Then each particle becomes an 'object' of its type template with its own phenomology as defined by its template and properties.

Interaction behaviours and field dynamics are then fully defined in the templates.

This would then provide a comprehensible ontology for such phenomena as entanglement

correlations, distributed wave functions in real physical space, and such things as virtual photons in electron-proton interactions.

No, STANDARD MODEL for physics not Von Neumann. He do computer.

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LaserMind

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sirchasm

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However the first likely applications for machines built with quantum logic will be: simulating QM.

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LaserMind

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sirchasm said:

However the first likely applications for machines built with quantum logic will be: simulating QM.

Cannot we simulate QM already in a PC or Mac in a smaller defined universe? Entanglement would need a random number generator pointed at both entangled particles. Or would it need two random generators pointed at both particles? Not quite sure how Bell's Inequality would be simulated in a normall computer. Maybe its impossible and we need quantum computers.

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sirchasm

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We can't simulate even the standard model of QM on supercomputers, it takes a lot of time because QM is NP-hard, for a polynomial-time VA (note: a VN machine isn't a VA = a PC; a PC = a VN* + a real machine )

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- #14

granpa

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A non-deterministic Turing machine (NTM) differs in that...

many different actions may apply for the same combination of state and symbol...

How does the NTM "know" which of these actions it should take?

...the machine "branches" into many copies, each of which follows one of the possible transitions. Whereas a DTM has a single "computation path" that it follows, an NTM has a "computation tree". If any branch of the tree halts with an "accept" condition, we say that the NTM accepts the input.

BTW, 'nondeterministic' is a misnomer. it is perfectly deterministic.

A Von Neumann machine for the Universe is a theoretical concept proposed by mathematician and physicist John von Neumann in the 1940s. It is a self-replicating machine that can theoretically be used to explore and manipulate the entire universe.

A Von Neumann machine would be designed to have the ability to replicate itself using raw materials from its environment, similar to how biological organisms reproduce. It would also have the ability to perform calculations and make decisions based on its programming.

The potential applications of a Von Neumann machine are vast and vary depending on its intended purpose. Some proposed uses include space exploration, terraforming other planets, and even potentially solving complex scientific problems.

One major concern is the possibility of the machine replicating uncontrollably and depleting resources on a planetary or universal scale. There is also the potential for the machine to malfunction or be used for destructive purposes if not properly programmed or controlled.

Currently, the technology and resources needed to create a Von Neumann machine for the Universe do not exist. However, with advancements in technology and further understanding of the universe, it is not completely impossible in the future.

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