What are the benefits of STEM Learning Education for kids?

  • #26
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When I was a child a Plantar's wart was removed from my foot by the expedience of introducing to the locale a vaccine of some kind ; the immune system responded to that and, while in the area, wiped out the previously ignored wart.

That strikes me as being descendant of the homeopathic practice of similia similibus curantur, which (assumed) efficacy may be a result of hyperstimulating the body's repair systems.
I don't see what would be in common with homeopathy here. You didn't drink warts that had been diluted until nothing was left. You received an active substance, and you got it at the place of the wart.
 
  • #27
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I don't see what would be in common with homeopathy here.
That would be the italicized bit in the quote you posted, which also includes a short explanation of my reasoning.
You didn't drink warts that had been diluted until nothing was left.
That's a pretty bizarre claim. I never said anything like that.
You received an active substance, and you got it at the place of the wart.
??? I don't pretend to be a doctor, but if the treatment had included active TB cells, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion. Or, at least, I wouldn't.
 
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  • #28
DEvens
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That's a pretty bizarre claim. I never said anything like that.
This is in regard to talk of drinking diluted warts.

You did not make any such claim. That's true. But people who push homeopathy do make such claims. Often to truly absurd extremes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathic_dilutions
 
  • #29
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You did not make any such claim. That's true. But people who push homeopathy do make such claims. Often to truly absurd extremes.
Well, okay : I've never met one, personally (nor on the 'net). I take it that what seems like kneejerk malice is directed towards an ignorant reasoning framework, rather than any parts of the practice that may be (historically) valid ?

Like, having nothing against trepanning (to relieve pressure on the brain), just the insistence that any benefit is due to "letting the evil spirits escape".
 
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  • #30
pinball1970
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That's a pretty bizarre claim. I never said anything like that.
Yes but that is what homeopathy is/claims, diluting solutions down to extremely low level then administering as (alternative) medicine.



A STEM person (biology/pharmacology/physiology) would point out that Homeopathy does not and could not have a physiological effect.



Reasons? A STEM person would understand efficacy and dilution factors regard drug action, they would be aware of the placebo effect and also aware or meta studies carried regarding homeopathy.



If they had watched enemies of reason they would have heard a top homeopathy from the London hospital say he did not know how it worked.
 
  • #31
symbolipoint
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If they had watched enemies of reason they would have heard a top homeopathy from the London hospital say he did not know how it worked.
What does this mean, when something has a useful effect for a purpose but nobody knows how? And then if nobody know how, anyone who wants to research or investigate only has options of attempted poor hypotheses and Statistics.

(Maybe I should not suggest poor hypotheses, because some potential investigators would have more familiarity in the area than other investigators.)
 
  • #32
DEvens
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What does this mean, when something has a useful effect for a purpose but nobody knows how? And then if nobody know how, anyone who wants to research or investigate only has options of attempted poor hypotheses and Statistics.
It means they don't really have an effect.

"I don't know how it works, but when I turn my hat around I win at poker." No you don't.

"I don't know how it works, but when I wear my luck underpants, I always hit the traffic lights all green." No you don't.

"I don't know how it works, but when I squint, I can see CO2." No you can't.

"I don't know how it works, but if I dilute arsenic by a factor of ##10^{400}## it becomes a powerful cure for poisoning." No it doesn't.
 
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  • #33
DEvens
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Well, okay : I've never met one, personally (nor on the 'net). I take it that what seems like kneejerk malice is directed towards an ignorant reasoning framework, rather than any parts of the practice that may be (historically) valid ?

Like, having nothing against trepanning (to relieve pressure on the brain), just the insistence that any benefit is due to "letting the evil spirits escape".
Sigh. The parts "that may be (historically) valid" is an empty set. Homeopathy is a scam. Not simply wrong. Not simply absurdly wrong. But inexcusably wrong to the point that anybody who pushes it must either be willfully blind or malicious.

There's a brilliant video of James Randi putting the smack-down on homeopathy. It involves him consuming an entire bottle of homeopathic sleeping pills. The dilution factor was such that, in this jar, there was a minute chance of a single molecule of the supposed working material being present. Yet the warning label was equivalent to what you might find on a big bottle of actual drug. He took this entire jar at the start of a half hour lecture. Opened the seal, tossed the cotton packing, and took the entire bottle right in front of his audience. 100 pills, extra strength, no more than one needed. Then he gave his talk explaining homeopathy.

Trepanning "to relieve pressure on the brain" is valid in a very limited set of circumstances. A set of circumstance which the people who invented it were utterly unable to detect, and would not even ahve been able to recognize in an individual who had died from them. And which shows symptoms quite different from the usual things for which trepaning was imposed. And which the usual method of trepanning would have no benefit for and quite likely would kill the subject outright, since such conditions require a very specific and accurately placed removal of pressure, not simply drilling a hole at random. So, yes, I have quite a lot against trepanning as practiced "historically."

I'm getting to suspect a Poe.
 
  • #34
pinball1970
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What does this mean, when something has a useful effect for a purpose but nobody knows how? And then if nobody know how, anyone who wants to research or investigate only has options of attempted poor hypotheses and Statistics.

(Maybe I should not suggest poor hypotheses, because some potential investigators would have more familiarity in the area than other investigators.)
It means they have no idea because there is no Scientific reason why it should work.
Considering all the other evidence we know why it doesn't, why it shouldn't.
Considering the money made out of these gullible people they are hardly going to cite studies regarding placebo
 
  • #35
WWGD
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It means they have no idea because there is no Scientific reason why it should work.
Considering all the other evidence we know why it doesn't, why it shouldn't.
Considering the money made out of these gullible people they are hardly going to cite studies regarding placebo
Well, if it works for some, albeit as a placebo, why not have them use it to alleviate their suffering? Note that I am not arguing for its scientific validity, just that it seems to work for some as a placebo.
 
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  • #36
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I'm getting to suspect a Poe.
No idea what a "Poe" is ; though from context I suspect it means "troll".

Several posts ago, I commented that a modern practice - that of goosing the body's repair mechanisms into action by emulating a real threat - may have stemmed from what I understood as one of the (otherwise unrelated) precepts of homeopathy, ie: inducing a symptom, artificially.

I then further posited that if that previous method had worked at all (beyond the placebo effect*,which I didn't think to mention at the time), that that might be the mechanism.

If I had simply wanted to provide some small trolling amusement, I'd claim that the earliest man-made tool wasn't a flint knife, but a hair tie.

* Why don't pharmacies carry medication clearly marked as "Placebos" ? Seems logical.
 
  • #37
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That would be the italicized bit in the quote you posted, which also includes a short explanation of my reasoning.
And as I said, I don't see any parallel there.
That's a pretty bizarre claim. I never said anything like that.
That's the point. If drinking diluted warts would have been the treatment it would be like homeopathy, but it was not. "Apply this creme containing 1% of [substance] to the area to be treated" is not like homeopathy at all.
Several posts ago, I commented that a modern practice - that of goosing the body's repair mechanisms into action by emulating a real threat - may have stemmed from what I understood as one of the (otherwise unrelated) precepts of homeopathy, ie: inducing a symptom, artificially.
Homeopathy doesn't induce any symptoms. The stuff they sell is diluted way too much for that.
Well, if it works for some, albeit as a placebo, why not have them use it to alleviate their suffering? Note that I am not arguing for its scientific validity, just that it seems to work for some as a placebo.
  • It stops some people from getting real medicine, or makes them get proper help later, making their condition worse. Not a big deal with a cold, but it can be fatal if the same people try homeopathy for more serious health problems.
  • It is way too expensive to be a fair price for a placebo. To make it worse, some health insurances (and therefore every member of that insurance) pay for that nonsense.
 
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  • #39
BvU
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Leaves a lot of applicable choices ... :biggrin:
 
  • #40
pinball1970
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Just to add
Well, if it works for some, albeit as a placebo, why not have them use it to alleviate their suffering? Note that I am not arguing for its scientific validity, just that it seems to work for some as a placebo.
The bottom line is, that it is taking advantage of the fact the patient thinks the treatment is doing something when it isn't. They are paying for something that does not work they are paying for an expensive placebo/ water.
STEM educated person would not fall for it, would not entertain it.
I have asthma, there is no cure, I know there is no cure (via drugs anyway) I know what's happening in my lungs, my alveoli, my cells when I have an attack. I know sitting in a chair for an hour, chatting and drinking small amounts of water will not do anything.
 
  • #41
berkeman
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Since the main thread has run its course and the thread started to veer off-topic, this is probably a good point to close the thread. Thanks everybody for participating.
 

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