News What Are the Historical Origins of Anti-Semitic Sentiment?

[Zargawee]

Originally posted by C0mmie
In the last few months, Israel has pulled out of Palestenian territory several times, only to get hit by several waves of suicide bombings. In my opinion, the same will happen when a Palestenian state is created: they will try to attack Israeli civillians again. Who is it that's not giving peace a chance?

When poeple become homeless, foodless, hopeless ...etc. and also tormented by their authorities , do you think they will be happy ? or getting their home destroyed will make them just leave ?
Acually this consolidates the hate between the two sides, if the Israeli side stopped killing CHILDREN AND WOMEN , and destroying homes , and assassinations of some Palestinians , then hate will become less , and those attacks will not have any excuses to happen .

I fully agree. But for peace to last the Palestenians have to do something to stop Hamas and Hizbulla(sp?), whose only goal is the destruction of Israel. So far, the Palestenian leadership has been doing nothing to stop these terrorist organizations, and in fact Arafat is supporting them. Israel has no choice but to defend itself.

Sharon's main goal is to destroy every tiny thing that might lead to make a Palestinian idependent country, if he allowed the Palestinian country to come up , Hamas and Hizbuallah won't have excuses to attack Israel.
Add to that that the National Palestinian Authority doesn't have real control, It's police are getting killed by Israeli forces , and Polics stations are getting destroyed by Israeli attacks , Governmental buildings are getting detroyed by Israeli forces, Governmental adminstrators are getting assassinated by Israeli Forces , journalism is not allowed becuase Israel thinks that Newspapers courages poeple to make bas actions , Food transportation is fully controlled by Israeli government ...etc.
So , next time you hear Sharon oppressing the Palestinain side for the resonsibility of the Bombing actions, ask yourself how much control PNA have ? And why they don't have too much control !

 

[C0mmie]

f he allowed the Palestinian country to come up , Hamas and Hizbuallah won't have excuses to attack Israel.

Hamas has stated on several occasions that they will not stop the suicide bombings even if a Palestenian state is created.

Your previous two posts are a classic example of Muslim extremist propoganda.

The Topic is about Jews , and why they are hated , if you want to Discuss Islam , start a new Topic.

Actually, the shortcomings or Islam is the biggest reason for anti-Semitism today.

1- they think that they are the chosen poeple , the poeple God like, and anyone who is not of them is a lower person, and this lower person's life is not important, only their life is important.

Find me a religion or an ethnic group that doesn't think that about themselves.

2- their deals between Non-Jews are full of deceptions and trickeries , but their deals between each other are honset and good.

It is natural for people to trust others of their own ethnic group more than outsiders, but there is no deception and trickery in this. Furthermore, Arafat has promised on numerous occasions to stop Hamas and Hizbuallah from carrying out more suicide bombings, but in reality is only funding more attacks against Israeli civillians. You don't call that deception and trickery?!

3- they have discrimination in color/root/languages...etc.

What?!

4- they are money slaves , all they care for is money

How many Jewish people do you know? I'm guessing that you don't know many, and you shouldn't make comments like cause you have no idea what you are talking about. I personally know many Jews, including myself, who don't really care about money.

 

[Zero]

Guys, let's try to find the root of the problem, not rehash the current debacle, ok? I suggested that the roots come from Biblical times, and I do think it is valid. When you have a large group who feels that they are 'chosen', and they feel it is ok to exterminate other groups, no one is going to like them...especially since they grabbed big chunks of the best real estate. And, especially in this region it seems, memories are very long, if selective.

 

[C0mmie]

Originally posted by Zero
When you have a large group who feels that they are 'chosen',

Every single monotheistic religion has thought that God was on their side and that they are 'chosen.' So why is it ok for everyone else to do it but not the Jews.

especially since they grabbed big chunks of the best real estate.

So did the Romans, Greeks, Ottoman Turks, Mongols, and every other major civilization in history, so why is it that we love Italians and Greeks, but hate Jews?

Perhaps its time to stop trying to justify anti-Semitism and racism, wouldn't you agree, Zero?

 

[drag]

Greetings !

Zargawee, if the above two messages truly
reflect what you THINK rather than something
you simply feel more relaxed after writing,
then, considering this is a forum for people
who really think and despite the fact that I
understand that a life surrounded by propoganda
and your relativly young age are a problem -
well, if that is indeed what you think then
I personally, with all due respect, am not going
to respond to your messages in this particular
thread anymore. Thought is a process that requires
effort - like lifting a heavy rock, but once you
excersize it enough in any field - it becomes easier.

*edit*Langauge Guidelines: Direct or indirect personal attacks are strictly not permitted.


Live long and prosper.

 

[Zero]

Why is stating facts 'racist'? You guys need to get a grip. Are we to say that No Jew has ever done anything bad? Are we to say that of all the waring tribes in the history of the world, somehow Jewish tribes were pure as they killed other people and took their land? In trying to avoid being anti-Semitic, you lean too far in teh other direction. Why is it that people(especially conservatives?) turn into bleeding-heart liberals when it comes to Israel?

It's like trying to talk about Germany's place in the world while ignoring World War II...you can't pretend that nothing negative was ever done by a Jewish group any time in history. You don't have to call me a racist just because I try to look a little deeper than you are willing to do.

(and, as stated repeatedly, I don't buy into the idea of future generations being punished for the actions of their ancestors...that sort of attitude belongs to the Judeo-Christian faith, and I'm an Atheist. I was just inquiring into the idea that 4,000 year old politics may need to be factored into things...)

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by kat
I don't know if this comment should be defined as "racist" or just plain old ignorance.
Zero-this line of thought appears to be based on the assumption that Jewish biblical history is independent of the history of the other Abrahamic religions. This is inherently false, islam and christianity share the same early biblical history as the Jews in all it's glory and violence.

Well...sort of ignorance...I was INQUIRING about historical information. Thanks for filling in some of it for me.

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by C0mmie


Perhaps its time to stop trying to justify anti-Semitism and racism, wouldn't you agree, Zero?

I'm trying to EXPLAIN, not justify...would you discuss race relations in the U.S. without asking about the influence of slavery?

 

[damgo]

russ -- while I to some extent agree with you about the Qu'ran, I find the Old Testament to be about the same. eg, God "hardening the hearts" of the Egyptians so he could kill more of them, Moses ordering captive women and children slaughtered, etc. But luckily people are good at forming an ethical religion out of this sort of stuff. Judaism and Christianity aren't evil religions because their holy books say some nasty stuff; nor is Islam. If you want to get a feel for what Islam -- the religion today -- really holds, google "Islam"; there are plenty of sites that give you a much better exposition.

Zero -- You're looking too far back. Most of the affected peoples are long since gone or absorbed; and the Hebrews themselves were nearly exterminated and driven out several times since them. If you look at ancient history, it is a long parade of mass killings, conquests, and forced migrations. No one hates the Italians for the destruction of the Temple, or loves the Iranians for freeing the Jewish people from the Exile, or hates the Germans for the conquest of Rome. Almost everywhere, far too many movements and changes have occurred since for those ancient divisions to matter.

I ask you not to argue about political issues that you have a poor understanding of their background

Drag, I agree with this sentiment, but IMO your background is more than a bit wrong itself. Zarg and I already covered your conception of Moslems; your history is off too:

1) When Israel declared independence in 1948, a number of the Arab countries attacked and were defeated. Some parts of the proposed Palestine were annexed into Israel; but the West Bank and Gaza Strip were held by Arab armies and annexed into Jordan and Egypt respectively. In 1967, some of the Arab countries were again planning war on Israel; Israel preemptively (~day in advance) launched its own attack, seizing the West Bank and Gaza Strip (+other stuff). These are to this day not a part of Israel; they are "occupied territories" administered by the military.

2) Where in God's name are you getting this "the Arabs supported Hitler" stuff? The Axis were as much colonialists as anyone.

3) The major bones of contention now are a) the status of Israeli settlements in the territories, and b) the Palestinian right of return (to Israel.) Not just "getting the whole country."

4) You are mixing up several very different forces in Arab history -- nationalism, secular pan-Arabism, communism, and Islamism. They each have individual histories; but more often than not nationalism has been at odds with Islamism. The USSR's relationship with the region was extremely varied and complex, just like the USA's... to say they 'ignited' Islamism is inaccurate.

Oh, and I find it illuminating that negative comments about Islam is ok, but negative comments towards Judaism are not...

Actually I find both equally offensive...

 

[kat]

Damgo-In regards to your point #1 Our view of history differ slightly. Despite so many opposing views and differences of opinions, and despite that there are those who, of their own admittance, use the forum as only a podium in which to put forth their dissenting opinion, I think it is very beneficial and positive to have these type of threads so that we might better understand each others views. keeping this in mind, here is what I view as the events you outlined above:

On Nov 30, 1947 the UN voted to partition Palestine. The Arab perception was that all of mandatory Palestine was Arab land, and the UN had no right to hand "Arab land" over to Jewish sovereignty. So instead of engaging in state building on the half alloted to them, the Palestinians showed their independence and defiance by refusing to agree to partition and going to war to prevent its implementation. The result of that was the Nakba(meaning disaster in regards to the expulsion of more than half the Palestinian people from the territories that became the State of Israel in the course of the 1948 war.), i.e. war, refugees, and ultimately the shrinking of land available for an Arab Palestinian state.

The defiance continued. At the end of the fighting the Arabs showed this by refusing to negotiate a peace agreement with the Jewish state, so there were still no mutually recognized borders. In 1967 the Arabs again showed their defiance of the Jewish state by forming ad hoc military alliances in a plan to eliminate it, then blockading the port of Eilat, and inciting their populations regarding the imminent demise of the "Zionist entity" while simultaneously threatening to drive the Jews into the sea. The result was the war of 1967, which was a second Nakba for the Arabs.

Then the Arabs continued by gathering together under the umbrella of the Arab league and voting to maintain a united tripartate policy: No peace with the Zionist entity. No negotiation with the Zionist Entity. No recognition of the Zioinst entity. The result was that Israel was free to annex Jerusalem, annex the Golan, and build settlements all over the West Bank and Gaza.

At Camp David, Arafat made very clear his defiance of Clinton and the American mediators by the way he responded to their proposals. The result was that Clinton finally gave up (after a truly valiant effort), the Oslo process collapses and the intifada replaced it. The end results ... hundreds upon hundreds of human beings dead who did not have to die (most of them Palestinian Arabs), total collapse of the economies of the West Bank and Gaza, and more intense oppression of Palestinians on almost any scale you choose to measure it by.

Why do so many hate the jews? because they refuse to assimilate to other cultures and once finally receiving a land of their own, after a thousand years long history of repeated expulsions from one country after another, culminating in an attempt at literal genocide in which two thirds of the Jews in all of Europe were exterminated over a couple of years time, while the rest of the world could not be convinced or even bothered to so much as bomb the death camps or even to take in the survivors they now, after having existed as a united people no matter how forcefully separated and scattered they had been, now REFUSE to stop defying anyone and everything who tries to take this small piece of land, this bit of independance away from them.
While in the meantime, religious leaders, and wonderful men like Arafat continue to use their people as pawns in a game for funding, ego's and power and barter away for their own benefit any possibility of peace, freedom, financial security for the Palestinian people all the while screaming the equivelent of "defiance defiance". It will take centuries upon centuries, if ever to be able to stop the hatred built up by holy men's calls on sunday mornings, media and school books. Stop by mewnews and read the sunday speaches that have been translated sometime, you'll see where so much hate eminates from.

 

[damgo]

^^^ Actually, kat, I pretty much entirely agree with you.

The only thing I would add is the effects of the vast growth of the far right as a force in Israel post-1967. Charming fellows like Rabbi Kook and Kahane, with their calls for ethnic cleansing and a Greater Israel stretching "from the Nile to the Tigris," along with their less radical allies in Shas, NRP, etc, have had no little influence. The result has been a shameful shift from the land-for-peace policy of '67 to a policy of active, subsidized building of Israeli civilian settlements in the territories, where Palestinians still live under military occupation, with no citizenship anywhere, no rights.

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by damgo
^^^ Actually, kat, I pretty much entirely agree with you.

The only thing I would add is the effects of the vast growth of the far right as a force in Israel post-1967. Charming fellows like Rabbi Kook and Kahane, with their calls for ethnic cleansing and a Greater Israel stretching "from the Nile to the Tigris," along with their less radical allies in Shas, NRP, etc, have had no little influence. The result has been a shameful shift from the land-for-peace policy of '67 to a policy of active, subsidized building of Israeli civilian settlements in the territories, where Palestinians still live under military occupation, with no citizenship anywhere, no rights.

Between this and the suicide bombers, I'm going with my very original idea...pave over Israel, and put in a bunch of WalMarts, Blockbusters, and Starbucks.

 

[quantumcarl]

Originally posted by schwarzchildradius
can anybody tell me?

Before WW2, Hitler said that the result of a war would be the elimination of Jews from 'Europa' meaning Europe. Was Hitler using the Jews as hostages?

Where does the anti-semetic sentiment derive from in general? It seems as though the Jews have a lot of history to avenge, given their ancient Code of Laws. Why don't they take revenge on the peoples who have wronged them?

You could say the NANI's needed a scapegoat and a reason to drum up a national and cohesive focus on something other than themselves and their inability to run a country prosperiously. The Natzis blamed the jews for the poor economic conditions of the time because Jews were well known as finacial wizards and methodic investors. This helped to make them look responsible for the rest of Germany being in an economic slump.

Of course, the Hebrews were always frowned upon because their methods of survival and social structuring worked so much better than other tribal or social structures. They always seemed to do well when other nations did poorly. Their rivals and their trading partners often became envious of the hebrew successes. Sucessful and prosperous peoples are often coveted and attempts to integrate their ingenuity into a nation must happened often. They were inducted as slaves, as trades people and they were conquered as a people.

Often a nation with such a successful and steadfastly congruent history will develope a sense of always being right... a kind of brave arrogance in the face of other nations.

This sort of arrogance will sometimes foster a demonstration of adversity from neighbouring and/or hosting nations to the people who exhibit such a self-assuredness and blatent distaste for the traditions of other peoples.

Shalom. Oi vey!

 

[drag]

Greetings !

Originally posted by damgo
Drag, I agree with this sentiment, but IMO
your background is more than a bit wrong itself.
Zarg and I already covered your conception of
Moslems; your history is off too:

My conception of Islam is as that of any
other religion. (Which being an atheist is not
a very positive one. ) My conception of
many of the current Muslims and how Islam is
"served" to them and what empaphasis they are
taught is seemingly what we can't agree over.
However, why do you deny what happened to Islam
within the past half a century ?
(Christianity is a religion that is against
ANY violence, unlike Jewdaism. Thay is why
Jesus's teachings were seen as different.
Nevertheless, a phousand years ago the
Crusaders of the "west" found more than enough
justification for their actions. The riligion
and its interpretation can sometimes differ
greatly and that is part of what happened with
Islam today. Which was easier because it's not
a totally peaceful religion in the first place.)

Like you said my discription (about the USSR)
to which you referred in your point 4 is
inaccurate, but the reason for this is the
limmited size of this forum's messages and
of my free time, sorry. Overall though, in
this very general form it is correct, or
wouldn't you agree ?

As for what you call "covered" when you refer to
Zargawee - his info and interpretations are a
"bit off", wouldn't you agree ?
(After all, if the Israelis are just killing the
palestinians why is it taking so long ? There
are just 3 million of them. )

Originally posted by damgo
In 1967, some of the Arab countries were
again planning war on Israel; Israel
preemptively (~day in advance) launched
its own attack, seizing the West Bank and
Gaza Strip (+other stuff). These are to this
day not a part of Israel; they are "occupied
territories" administered by the military.

It is not a matter of inaccuracy, I simply
didn't mention this part. I probably should've,
my mistake. Anyway, the west bank areas and Gaza
were under military control because they were seen
as elements which may be used again by other
arab countries to attack Israel, because they
had terrorist resistence movements and because
they had no local central government to rule
them with which, otherwise, it would be possible
to nagotiate. There was and is also the matter
that no surrounding arab countries want them
as part of them because even the surrounding
arab countries view them as trouble makers,
otherwise the Gaza strip would've been a part
of Egypt and the west bank would be a part of
Jordan for decades now. In Jordan in particular
the ex-palestinians are a majority and over
2 decades ago their attacks on Israel and the
internal instability they caused in Jordan
forced king Hussein to get rid of many of them.
These exiles were also unwanted in Syria so
they went to Libya and practicly destroyed
that once well known middle eastern "paradise".

Originally posted by damgo
2) Where in God's name are you getting this
"the Arabs supported Hitler" stuff?

That response is complete BS, no offense,
but that is the case. There is a HUGE amount of
info on this. I made just a quick search
to put at least one link here with a relativly
lenghty general discription and that shouldn't
be, I believe, questioned in terms of objectivity
(if that's not enough do a google search on
Nazis and arabs and you'll see countless other
respected sites with the same discription).
http://www.frontpagemag.com/articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=4934

Originally posted by damgo
3) The major bones of contention now are a) the
status of Israeli settlements in the territories,

Indeed.

Originally posted by damgo
and b) the Palestinian right of return (to Israel.)
Not just "getting the whole country."

That is a clear example of how some of the
palestinians just can't "get over" it.

First of all, they fled out of their own free will,
nobody forced them to and the many that remained are
a clear evidence. It was a time of war and despite
the UN resolution there were no borders and no
two states because the arabs decided to attack.
Had the arabs won they would never release the
territories they'd conquer and they'd practicly
push the Isrealis into the sea and "be done with
them", but Israel prevaled and expanded the tiny
borders that were enitially assigned to it.

Second, it is ridiculous because it is quite
apparent that if millions of palestinians suddenly
become citizens of a democratic state like Israel
and thus become an arab majority the result will
be the immidiate destruction of Israel.

That point is simply ridiculous and it will
NEVER be realized.

Something for your general education boys and gals,
about the education systems of the palestinians
and the neighboring arab countries :
http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0kv40

Peace and long life.

 

[GENIERE]

I must applaud Kat’s brief history of the turmoil in the mid-east. The history is biased in favor of Israel. However biased the presentation, facts remain facts.

Historically, since the exodus, Jews have resided in the area comprising present day Israel in an unbroken chain. No other group of peoples can make that claim. No state, other than a Jewish state, has ever existed in that area. During the rule of the Romans and Ottomans, the area was considered a province of another state, never a political entity.

Many do not accept the existence of Israel as and argue that its existence is illegal. The fact is it has existed, does exist and will continue to exist. It will exist in peace (hopefully), through force of arms, and if necessary exist via the political or military force of the USA. The prospect of peace will be advanced upon all recognizing this fait accompli.

Why does the USA support Israel? No doubt the Jewish lobby influences some members of Congress, presumably those representing many Jewish constituents. Most representatives do not have large Jewish populations and yet still support Israel. Is it because The Jews control the wealth of the USA? Any wealth controlled by the Jews is a small part of the total wealth. It must be considered that the USA supports Israel simply because it’s the right thing to do.


Regards

 

[C0mmie]

Originally posted by quantumcarl
Of course, the Hebrews were always frowned upon because their methods of survival and social structuring worked so much better than other tribal or social structures. They always seemed to do well when other nations did poorly. Their rivals and their trading partners often became envious of the hebrew successes.

Exaclty! It's because they're jealous!

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by GENIERE
I must applaud Kat’s brief history of the turmoil in the mid-east. The history is biased in favor of Israel. However biased the presentation, facts remain facts.

Historically, since the exodus, Jews have resided in the area comprising present day Israel in an unbroken chain. No other group of peoples can make that claim. No state, other than a Jewish state, has ever existed in that area. During the rule of the Romans and Ottomans, the area was considered a province of another state, never a political entity.

Many do not accept the existence of Israel as and argue that its existence is illegal. The fact is it has existed, does exist and will continue to exist. It will exist in peace (hopefully), through force of arms, and if necessary exist via the political or military force of the USA. The prospect of peace will be advanced upon all recognizing this fait accompli.

Why does the USA support Israel? No doubt the Jewish lobby influences some members of Congress, presumably those representing many Jewish constituents. Most representatives do not have large Jewish populations and yet still support Israel. Is it because The Jews control the wealth of the USA? Any wealth controlled by the Jews is a small part of the total wealth. It must be considered that the USA supports Israel simply because it’s the right thing to do.


Regards

I would add that, historically, the Palestinians have lived there for long enough to have a solid claim...and by your reasoning, we should give America back to the Indians.

 

[damgo]

Christianity against any violence? Depends what we define as "religion" which is pointless semantics I don't want to get into. For the vast majority of its history, though, the Church has not taken this view: there is a long tradition of "just war doctrine" you can look up. Augustine and Aquinas both defended war under certain circumstances, and this is reflected in the official Catholic catechism which lays out conditions and concerns when war is justified.

re: USSR, no I don't think that's correct. The USSR often played off whichever factions theyu found convenient, but their major support was always for the Communists -- really, this shouldn't be surprising. More often than not, the Islamists viewed the commies as the worst kind of infidels, and there were notable purges of them at various points in Iran, Afghanistan, as well as Egypt and Iraq, that I can remember now.

The reason the occupied territories are territories and not part of Israel, or Jordan or whatever... that's complex and I don't claim to really know the details. One thing that you didn't mention, though, is the fact that they contain large parts of Jewish holy/historical sites -- eg Hebron, Jericho, Shechem. For many religious Israelis, wanting to keep these is an important factor as well.

I'll reiterate that this "the Arabs supported Hitler" stuff is ridiculous. First, I don't consider Frontpage Magazine an objective or reputable source! Note that an article up now is "The Antiwar Movement's Nazi Connection" another whose lead asks "Why did so many anti-war protestors side with Saddam during the war?" The article is a standard hatchet-job, listing a handful of anecdotes -- some possibly out of context -- in the support of a grand thesis.

I'm quite willing to agree that WWII-era Arabs, and modern anti-war protestors, have quite similar levels of support for Hitler/Nazis.

re: the right of return. Israel wouldn't be 'destroyed', but it simply could not remain both a Jewish and a democratic state if it let the refugees back in. That won't happen; and I believe it ought not to.

But, I think it's flat-out wrong to try and claim this is somehow OK or ethical. It's the way of the world that sometimes innocent people just have to get screwed, because it's a lesser-of-two-evils sort of thing. But we ought to admit that not letting the Palestinians return home is unfair, if necessary. Not try and avoid responsibility by arguing that by fleeing they somehow gave up their right to return. [I don't know if you're claiming this; but it's something I've often heard before.]

 

[FZ+]

I'll reiterate that this "the Arabs supported Hitler" stuff is ridiculous. First, I don't consider Frontpage Magazine an objective or reputable source! Note that an article up now is "The Antiwar Movement's Nazi Connection" another whose lead asks "Why did so many anti-war protestors side with Saddam during the war?" The article is a standard hatchet-job, listing a handful of anecdotes -- some possibly out of context -- in the support of a grand thesis.

The fact on this particular issue is that certain member of the Nazi top brass sought to recruit muslims as part of the war. In particular was the shameful case of Amin al-Husseini, who went to the nazis for an end to years of British repression in Iraq. Eichmann even considered islam the ideal religion, due to the way the principle of Jihad can be use the justify war.
But here's the crux. The forces of a single person supported Hitler. That is nowhere near saying the entire Arab race or Muslim religion supported the nazis, but rather some were willing to turn to them. This ignores the truth that millions of muslims also fought on the side of the allies as part of the commonwealth (united India then being under british rule), and that all races and religions aided Hitler in his wars. Why do we not see the idea the ukrainians are now marked out for some of them fighting for the germans against the soviets, or that the entirity of Catholicism is made to be fascist for cooperating with Hitler's rule? This statement is hence based on distorted facts and racist/religiously divisive bias.

 

[kat]

Originally posted by damgo
^^^ Actually, kat, I pretty much entirely agree with you.

The only thing I would add is the effects of the vast growth of the far right as a force in Israel post-1967. Charming fellows like Rabbi Kook and Kahane, with their calls for ethnic cleansing and a Greater Israel stretching "from the Nile to the Tigris," along with their less radical allies in Shas, NRP, etc, have had no little influence. The result has been a shameful shift from the land-for-peace policy of '67 to a policy of active, subsidized building of Israeli civilian settlements in the territories, where Palestinians still live under military occupation, with no citizenship anywhere, no rights.

Damgo, before Zero up and starts hot-topping all of israel ( I won't ask what he would do with the 6.6 million people who live there) I would like to address what I think is a critical difference between how Israeli handled men like kahane.

Kahane who founded the both the Israeli chapter of the JDL and the anti-arab Koch political party in 1971. He ran for, and lost, the Israeli Knesset in 1976 and 1980. In 1980 Rabbi Kahane was jailed by the Israeli government under an unprecedented administrative detention order. In fact, he was the first Jew in Israel to ever be accused of sedition.
In 1984, Kahane was successful in winning his first Knesset seat. With the coming of the 1988 Israeli elections, the Kach party may have been headed towards a major election victory but shortly before the elections, and in a move unprecedented in Israel, the sitting Knesset voted to ban Rabbi Kahane from running for political office. It was an absolutely mind blowing event. The ban was based on an amendment added to Israel's Basic Law that disqualified any candidate whose platform included "incitment to racism."

 

[FZ+]

But I wonder if the same would happen in the modern Israel, under Sharon...

 

[kat]

I don't know..and I'd rather not indulge in supposition. One thing I do know..is no such event has occurred regarding Arafat.

 

[FZ+]

And neither with Sharon...

I just do not believe that the Israel-Palestine problem can be reduced to the idea of one side being the bad guy. I think the blame flinging that goes on is one of the obstacles to a peaceful settlement.

 

[kat]

Originally posted by FZ+
And neither with Sharon...

I just do not believe that the Israel-Palestine problem can be reduced to the idea of one side being the bad guy. I think the blame flinging that goes on is one of the obstacles to a peaceful settlement.

FZ-There is certainly enough blame to go around for numerous things. But, there is one thing for certain as long as Arafat is spouting hate and destruction in arabic out of one side of his mouth and peace and kiss, kiss in english out of the other side there will be no end to suicide bombing or hamas and hezbollah terrorist activites and without an end to suicide bombing and hamas-hezbolloah activities there will never be a land for peace agreement. Because, as some seem to forget the land is only one side of the agreement..the peace is the other very important one that has of yet, never come to fruition.

*addition: If there is one hope, at this point it very well could be this roadmap for peace that both sides are working very, very hard at undermining. Maybe the one thing going for it is the stubborn and singleminded hardheadedness of Bush.

 

[drag]

Greetings !

Originally posted by Kat
before Zero up and starts hot-topping all of israel

Carefull, critism of racism and extremism
will not be tolerated - they are part of the
freedom of speech.

Originally posted by FZ+
But I wonder if the same would happen in
the modern Israel, under Sharon...

In a heartbeat and faster. Since the assasination
of Rabin the sensitivity towards these extremist
groups coming from the settlements has greatly
increased.

Damgo,
First - Christianity, although it also includes
the Bible, the main and transformed principles
of the religion are coming from the new testament
which speaks of Jesus and his teachings. These
teachings are completely against any sort
of violence. (I'm not saying it's good or bad,
I personally am against such a view, however
the point remains.) Nevertheless, enough reason
was found to justify violence. In Islam, the
exteremist will find the task easier should
he want to emphasize violence and Jihad.

As for the USSR, do you have at least a general
idea of the resources the USSR poured into the
above mentioned countries and many other arab
countries ? The amount of Soviet engineers that
worked on developing them, the weapons of all
their armies and many many more.
Communism didn't work, so in a number of places
they tried to side with Islamic extremists and
when the USSR was on your side - the opposition
was doomed. After some local fires were egnited,
the Islamic revolution took on a life of its own
like most revolutions and did what it pleases.
Again, this revolution does not honor this old
and respected religion.

As for the arabs supported Hitler stuff, that's
an abvious historical fact. And the support was
not only by palestinian arabs but all over the
middle east including Iran, Iraq, Syria, Jordan,
Egypt and many other countries.

I did not mention the part about the holy sites
because it is not an important factor for most
Israelis - they'd give'em up in a heartbeat
if they thought this would mean the end of the
conflict. It is a major issue for religeous
extremists who also happen to be the settlers.
However, like the "normal" people who were
once thrown out when Israel returned Sinay
to Egypt, these people will be thrown out even
quicker if and when Israel sees that it can
have a real agreement with an established
palestinian central rule.

The "right" of return is a questionable
matter (beyond the general fact that it'll
never happen ). It is true that the
palestinians left those territories and that
there wasn't an established state that
can claim it's rights there (the UN resolution
was a devision that never actualy took place).
On the other hand, the - "I had a state there once
in history so the land is mine and if I didn't
have a state there then it's not" is often
problematic. The palestinians are indeed the
loosers in this case and it is indeed unfair.
But, life's not always totally fair. An if for
the past half a century they would spend their
time actualy working and establishing something
they'd have a prosperous state by now. Of course,
they were also the play tools of the arab world
which certainly had a strong negative effect.

Live long and prosper.

 

[quantumcarl]

Originally posted by C0mmie
Exaclty! It's because they're jealous!

Well, yeah.

Its more of a form of misunderstanding and, like any reaction to someone who thinks "I'm right and you're not".

This seems to be the basis for all religious strife... (all that has not been artificially stirred up, that is)... each religion and the people who practise its traditions thinks of themselves as the right way... they regard the next tradition as pig slop.

Combine this intolerant attitude... (which is prevailent today, as backward as it is)... with the coveting of the Hebrew diligence and method of financial and social survival and we see the Hebrew nation picked apart and looted if not in the minds of other nations then in actuality.

There is less and less room on this planet for displays of testosterone-driven reactions. We all need a place to sit down and hash out our differences... take stock of what works best for everyone and create the Utopian conditions that all the inhabitants of Earth deserve to experience. The Hebrew Nation's ideas can help with that just as much as certain tribal traditions out of New Guinea can help.

 

[moonstroller]

I like to think it's a form of sibling rivalry. If you have someone at a party that always has the right answer to a question, they are probably Jewish. Jews have the most patents on stuff, especially encryption patents. Also, G-d, of course like the Jews best of all and states they will rule the new world.

Most Jews don't believe this bunk but a lot of Arabs do.

Jews have a saying, "...If the Arabs lay down their arms, there will be peace in the middle east...if Jews lay down their arms, there will be no more Israel..."

The original persecution started when Rome passed laws, forbidding the Jews from congregating, spreading their religion and holding govenment offices, after the the Jews were defeated. They dispersed them around the world at that time. I think the rest has to do with money; kick out the Jews, take their homes and property. Many examples of this practice is found in Europe, when the Nazis tried to rob the Jews and exterminate them to keep their possessions.

I don't know if there is a real reason for Jew Hating. Perhaps is is simply a common practice passed down though the centuries, like the notion that left handed people are somehow different or that Pigmy's suffer from birth defects.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

can anybody tell me?

Before WW2, Hitler said that the result of a war would be the elimination of Jews from 'Europa' meaning Europe. Was Hitler using the Jews as hostages?

Where does the anti-semetic sentiment derive from in general? It seems as though the Jews have a lot of history to avenge, given their ancient Code of Laws. Why don't they take revenge on the peoples who have wronged them?

Well it is partly historic and partly bad luck (wrong place at the wrong time, not very forward thinking politics)

For example, the Catholics had a history of anti-semitism towards Jews, presumably for them rejecting Christ, and at least being partially responsible for his death (don't ask me religion is scary) This simmering under current often exposed itself when the church refused to allow Jews certain rights or confiscated their land or in the case of the German Crusade, massacred them. There's also the problem of the lending laws of the middle ages. The idea of lending money with interest was illegal back then (money lenders in the temple, etc) So the Jews not being subject to this law became the bankers and money lenders of the middle ages, quickly growing rich on the profits. What pisses people off more? Being a different "race" or being rich and a different "race". Because of this at various times, those in debt would try to avoid them by persecuting those they owed money too. It's all a bit sordid. I'm sure someone's already dealt with the 20th century, holocaust, blaming Jewish bankers for the problems with the German economy and so on. A rather ill conceived and implemented partition plan didn't help much.

During the first world war the Arabs seemed to get the impression the English had promised the Arabian peninsular to Arabian tribes. Something they later retracted. This pissed them off, and with the advent of the Sykes-Picot treaty - which was drawn up by Christian Zionists - many Arabs felt betrayed by this. It basically promised the Jews a homeland in trans-Jordan Palestine, this is when the area began to get volatile, with attacks on Jews in certain areas where before they had co-existed peacefully. During this time uprisings by Arabs in Palestine were ruthlessly suppressed by the British, who armed and trained what were to become the IDF, to further supplement and defend Jewish settlements. The British stuck between a rock and a hard place tried to alay fear of both sides by offering deals. This also angered the more fanatical Zionists such as Irgun, who saw the English as favouring Arabs. So they in turn started their own terror groups and began targeting embassies, rail stations and so on. The rest I'm sure has been covered, partition plan and so on. Yadeyade ya, modern day, all a bit of a mess. Us anti-Semitism, and US pro-Semitism, favours one side over the other, political ill will, yadeyade ya, ME political machinations, inflammatory wars, Gabrilla and Shatil massacres, colateral dammage, civillian casualties, 1968 war, annexation and occupation of West Bank, Gaza. And there we have it that's a very concise overview of the situation assuming various points have already been covered.