Benefits of a lunar base and whether silicon can be transported to Earth

[DrStupid]

And once you do have it why go to the Moon? Why not save a hell of a lot of money and create desert bases in the Gobi, Sahara and Atacama from a small factory seed?

I already answered this question: https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=3583666&postcount=9"

 

[Ryan_m_b]

I already answered this question: https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=3583666&postcount=9"

No you didn't. Your post;

Because it is much easier to lift material from Moon into space than from Earth. Furthermore the Moon has ore deposits that we only can dream of on Earth (e.g. for titanium). Everybody who wants to build a lot of big space ships and stations should think about mining the moon. But this requires a sufficient degree of automation or telerobotics because due to the deficiency of hydrogen Moon is not very suitable for manned infrastructure.

Only applies if what we are talking about is building space stations and vehicles capable of traveling beyond the Earth-Moon system. Within that stipulation it also only applies if the building materials can be found on the Moon and if they can be found and mined for a cheaper cost than finding and mining them on Earth before putting them in orbit. Considering that large scale mining and manufacturing is going to require some highly sophisticated and versatile factories I doubt Moon rather than the products of said factory to orbit?

 

[DrStupid]

A few heavy metals here and there?

http://www.geo.utep.edu/pub/olgin/Planetary/Pommerol_etal-Detectability_subsurfacesMaria_LRS_SELENE.pdf" is much more than "a few heavy metals here and there". There is nothing like that on Earth.

But personally, I reckon that mining the moon would be a wasted opportunity...why? because there is a whole solar system out there ready to be explored and exploited. Why not go the extra mile for more.

I do not see, why we can not have both at once.

 

[DrStupid]

No you didn't. Your post;

Only applies if what we are talking about is building space stations and vehicles capable of traveling beyond the Earth-Moon system.

Compared to the construction costs the extra costs for traveling beyond the Earth-Moon system is almost negligible.

Within that stipulation it also only applies if the building materials can be found on the Moon

You do not need to find all required materials on the Moon. It would be sufficient to find the material for the heavy parts of ships and stations such as for the support structure. Everything else - including high tech components that might be to tricky to build on the Moon - should better be build on Earth.

and if they can be found and mined for a cheaper cost than finding and mining them on Earth before putting them in orbit.

That's a question of technology. I already mentioned that it requires "a sufficient degree of automation or telerobotics" but "everybody who wants to build a lot of big space ships and stations" should have such technology when he means business.

Considering that large scale mining

In consideration of the deposits (very high content in the upper layer) harvesting would be the better word.

and manufacturing is going to require some highly sophisticated and versatile factories

Most of them would be primitive and stationary heavy industry. Only a few components must be highly sophisticated and mobile.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

Compared to the construction costs the extra costs for traveling beyond the Earth-Moon system is almost negligible.

You do not need to find all required materials on the Moon. It would be sufficient to find the material for the heavy parts of ships and stations such as for the support structure. Everything else - including high tech components that might be to tricky to build on the Moon - should better be build on Earth.

That's a question of technology. I already mentioned that it requires "a sufficient degree of automation or telerobotics" but "everybody who wants to build a lot of big space ships and stations" should have such technology when he means business.

In consideration of the deposits (very high content in the upper layer) harvesting would be the better word.

Most of them would be primitive and stationary heavy industry. Only a few components must be highly sophisticated and mobile.

No offence but all of this to me boils down to "if we had the technology to do X, we could do X" before handwaving away the technological hurdles. It's almost as if you are defining the benefit into existence rather than saying "if we specifically do option A there will be X measurable benefit, Y measurable cost which compared to the benefit and cost of alternative B...".

Yes I agree with you, if we could cheaply send automated/remote operated probes to the Moon capable of mining, refining and manufacturing local materials for a cheaper cost than on Earth then that is a benefit compared to shipping up all those pieces bit by bit. But that's fairly obvious and unless there are any specific peer-reviewed scientific and engineering articles that you could present it's essentially a worthless (or at best science fiction) discussion.

 

[DrStupid]

But that's fairly obvious and unless there are any specific peer-reviewed scientific and engineering articles that you could present it's essentially a worthless (or at best science fiction) discussion.

Sorry, but the whole discussion IS science fiction. It is obvious that we are currently not able to build more than a temporary research station on the Moon. The questions makes only sense for future technologies. I was sure that I do not need to explain it but just to be on the safe side I added the hint that it applies for "a lot of big space ships and stations". Wasn't that clear enough? Did you really think I wrote about presence - when USA isn't able to lift a single person into space?

 

[Ryan_m_b]

Sorry, but the whole discussion IS science fiction. It is obvious that we are currently not able to build more than a temporary research station on the Moon. The questions makes only sense for future technologies. I was sure that I do not need to explain it but just to be on the safe side I added the hint that it applies for "a lot of big space ships and stations". Wasn't that clear enough? Did you really think I wrote about presence - when USA isn't able to lift a single person into space?

There could be some very productive conversations about realistic development and deployment of technology. Instead all I see is backwards and forwards "if we could do magic X" with no discussion about how X could be achieved.

As for your other comments about what you implied, perhaps you should be clearer in future and less speculative. Lastly, you do realize the USA isn't the only country with a space organisation?

 

[DrStupid]

"if we could do magic X"

Automation and telerobotics is no magic. There was a mobile telerobot on the Moon 40 years ago. With current technology we could do much more. All we need is the will to spend the money for it. But even China isn't interested in more than symbolic or scientific missions.

Lastly, you do realize the USA isn't the only country with a space organisation?

1961 two of them where able to lift a man into space. 2011 two of them are able to lift a man into space (with almost the same technology). So much for that. We are far away from space flight in a large scale.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

Automation and telerobotics is no magic. There was a mobile telerobot on the Monn 40 years ago. With current technology we could do much more. All we need is the will to spend the money for it. But even China doesn't want to do more than symbolic or scientific missions.

Magic in the sense that it doesn't exist in the manner you are describing and no development pathway has been shown. There is a big difference in robots driving themselves around/being driven around and something resembling a semi-automated sprawling industrial complex capable of operating on the Moon.

1961 two of them where able to lift a man into space. 2011 two of them are able to lift a man into space. So much for that. We are far away from space flight in a large scale.

Yes although there are far more space agencies today with ambitions and funding. My main point was that what you said seemed to imply that the USA was the alpha and omega of space travel.

 

[DrStupid]

There is a big difference in robots driving themselves around/being driven around and something resembling a semi-automated sprawling industrial complex capable of operating on the Moon.

Yes, of course there is a big difference but we already have the technology to do that. If you want to ask me why we don't do that on Earth just ask yourself why we should do it. There is no need for such systems because we can produce everything much cheaper in factories, transport it to it's destination and assemble it manually. There are only a few situations where we wish to have universal telerobots or even telepresence systems (e.g. in Fukushima) but there seems to be not enough pressure for investments into the development.

My main point was that what you said seemed to imply that the USA was the alpha and omega of space travel.

USA has has the biggest economy on Earth. They dammed should be the alpha and omega of space travel. But the aren't because they are not really interested in manned spaceflight - as almost everybody else.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

Yes, of course there is a big difference but we already have the technology to do that. If you want to ask me why we don't do that on Earth just ask yourself why we should do it. There is no need for such systems because we can produce everything much cheaper in factories, transport it to it's destination and assemble it manually. There are only a few situations where we wish to have universal telerobots or even telepresence systems (e.g. in Fukushima) but there seems to be not enough pressure for investments into the development.

I disagree, there is huge investment and development worldwide for better AI and automation (especially in manufacturing), various forms of robotics and the shrinking of industry (see fablabs and 3d printers). There are huge incentives to do all of this for the benefits of Earth, if there is are spin-off technologies for space then all the better.

 

[DrStupid]

I disagree, there is huge investment and development worldwide for better AI and automation (especially in manufacturing)

You do not need better AI and automation for a Moon base because it would be used for the same routine processes as on Earth. What you really need is better telerobotics and telepresence. A machine on the Moon with a human brain on Earth would be a quite powerful tool and that is no science fiction. For example it is already possible to perform surgeries via Internet. Telerobots for an unmanned station (or a station with limited personal) on the Moon could be developed on the basis of existing technologies. Of course it must be more redundant and service reduced. And it must be possible to let the robots maintain each other. But it is no fundamental new technology and even less magic.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

You do not need better AI and automation for a Moon base because it would be used for the same routine processes as on Earth. What you really need is better telerobotics and telepresence. A machine on the Moon with a human brain on Earth would be a quite powerful tool and that is no science fiction. For example it is already possible to perform surgeries via Internet. Telerobots for an unmanned station (or a station with limited personal) on the Moon could be developed on the basis of existing technologies. Of course it must be more redundant and service reduced. And it must be possible to let the robots maintain each other. But it is no fundamental new technology and even less magic.

You misunderstand. When I say "AI" I do not mean human equivalent consciousness and intelligence, I simply mean intelligent/capable software. Telepresence is fine but first we need to develop to the point where the robots and factories that we send can be both operated and maintained remotely.

I disagree that this is nothing fundamentally new or that could be done with existing technologies. Show me a factory that is versatile enough to maintain itself economically (i.e. the turnover it produces is enough to fund the supply shipments of resources and parts it cannot mine and manufacture itself) purely with telepresence robots and then I will discuss the practicalities of putting that factory on the Moon. I think you are putting the cart before the horse here.

 

[miniradman]

hey, physicist... leave that moon alone

 

[berkeman]

Sorry, but the whole discussion IS science fiction.

Thread closed.