News What are the potential impacts of public confidence on the economy's recovery?

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The discussion centers on the precarious state of the U.S. economy, emphasizing that restoring public confidence is insufficient for recovery. Critics argue that reliance on cheap credit and government interventions has exacerbated the financial crisis, suggesting that a significant restructuring of the economy is necessary. The conversation highlights the ongoing challenges of rising unemployment, projected to exceed 10%, and the slow pace of economic recovery, with GDP still declining. Various recovery scenarios are debated, including V-shaped, W-shaped, and L-shaped recoveries, with pessimism about the immediate future.The dialogue also touches on the implications of national debt, which is growing rapidly and could lead to a future crisis if not addressed. Participants express skepticism about the effectiveness of government stimulus measures, pointing out that only a fraction of allocated funds have been spent, and stress the need for job creation and productive investments to drive genuine recovery. The discussion reflects a broader concern about the sustainability of economic policies and the potential for long-term consequences stemming from current fiscal practices.
  • #301
edward said:
The foreclosed houses aren't selling. Banks are sitting on thousands of them.

There seems to be little capacity left to comprehend how an economy works when it's not a long-term subsidiary of appreciation-driven fiscal stimulus. Nowhere in economic theory, that I am familiar with, does it say that persistent appreciation of property values is a requirement for supply and demand to function properly.

What is happening, however, is that the long trend of property-market appreciation has resulted in psychological resistance to imagining the deflationary trend could be anything but temporary. Couple this with the fact that there are extreme precedents for fiscal stimulus to ensure re-inflation, including pre-wwii new-deal programs, leading up the the creation of the military-industrial complex, and Freddie/Fannie as dispersion mechanisms to ensure the widespread distribution of government-stimulated income.

People are simply no longer capable of believing that government WON'T intervene in some way that re-establishes persistent inflation and therefore appreciation of their properties. Of course, if they would believe that property prices were going to eventually depreciate to pre-1930s values, they would sell as quickly as possible and the resulting crash would be so great that prices would completely reset as low as $1 per house.

Of course, even at $1/house, buying surplus property is a risk since it requires maintenance, tax-payments, and protection from thieves like the ones described a few posts back who want copper pipes, etc. (hint: use PVC instead of copper - or start lobbying your local building-code writers to make it legal).

Eventually, either the economy will have to adjust to reset all costs of property-ownership to make them attractive as hobby property OR something will have to happen which makes it likely for them to generate income either as rentals or sales. This will presumably occur when oil-independent transit has evolved to a level sufficient to allow people to occupy multiple properties without driving the economy into oil-recession.

Of course, for people to occupy multiple residences, other factors also come into play such as the ability to structure employment around seasonal migrations, etc. Presumably if people could afford to work someplace warm in the winter and/or migrate someplace cooler for the summer, they would. But this would also create a heavy burden on infrastructure, including oil-supply distribution, unless a highly space-efficient and fuel-efficient form of long-distance transit became dominant. I'm thinking this would either involve electric trains running on nuclear power or something more radically energy-conservative such as nomadism where people spend several months/year hiking between destinations.

Sustained nomadism is actually not as an obscure a possibility as it may sound, considering advances in IT that could allow people to work en route using portable media, for example, or planning a work schedule that would allow them to work a few weeks in each city over a series of intermediate destinations. This would, of course, involve radical innovations in management and human-resources, etc. People would have to have places to stay, en route, for example, which would require maintenance and housekeeping on a scale that would exceed the capacity of existing motels and campgrounds, especially with current standards of housekeeping (fresh towels and sheets every day!). Foreclosed houses could be made available as transient residences, but unless people could treat these properties like their own personal investment, owners would be reluctant to rent them out on a week-by-week basis. If this was the only way to pay the taxes and insurance, though, surely some would consider it.
 
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  • #302
Minority Leader McConnel:

NY Times said:
The Senate Republican leader, Mitch McConnell of Kentucky, spoke just as forcefully against the legislation. “The American people don’t seem to like this government-driven solution to the financial crisis any more than they like the Democrats’ government-driven solution to the nation’s health care crisis,” he said.

Citing a study by the United States Chamber of Commerce, a leading business group, Mr. McConnell said the bill would require 70 new federal regulations through the new consumer financial protection bureau, 11 new regulations through the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation, 30 new regulations through the Federal Reserve and 205 new regulations through the S.E.C.

“All told, this bill would impose 533 new regulations on individuals and small businesses,” Mr. McConnell said. “That will inevitably lead to the kind of confusion and uncertainty that will make it even harder for struggling businesses to dig themselves out of the recession.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/16/b...pagewanted=2&_r=1&partner=rss&emc=rss&src=igw
 
  • #303
mheslep said:

Businesses "digging themselves out of the recession" is not what cures recession. If recession was caused by the behavior of individual businesses, it wouldn't be system-wide, would it? The only thing that can cause the recession as a whole to improve is system-wide changes that may occur as a result of invisible-hand governance or government regulations and other interventions.

Part of the reason why the recession is dragging along so slowly is because there's a large proportion of businesses and/or individuals that are hedged against having to make appropriate changes to their activities, behavior, culture, lifestyles, etc. These people and businesses are not adapting to reduced demand by lowering their prices and the salaries of their employees because they want economic recovery to mean they can go back to consuming as much as they did before the recession. That's not possible, though, because the thing that caused the recession to start with was economic growth that overextended the global oil-supply. So the only thing that is going to improve this economy is restructuring and reform that reduces global per-capital oil consumption.

Once enough oil-thrifty economic and lifestyle practices are developed to allow the economic growth to occur without running into oil crisis, which spikes prices of everything when everyone getting paid is oil-dependent - once that happens economic growth can occur without the bottleneck of oil-scarcity. Until then, giving businesses more freedom to hedge themselves against price-competition is not going to do anything except prolong recovery.
 
  • #304
The chief executives of the 50 firms that laid off the most workers so far during the economic crisis enjoyed salaries that are 42% higher than the average pay of chief executives of other S&P 500 companies, according to a new study.

As MarketWatch's Steve Goldstein notes in his story today, that CEO list was topped by ex-Schering Plough chief Fred Hassan, who earned $49.65 million in 2009. After their merger, his company and Merck laid off a combined 16,000 workers.

By way of comparison, women's median weekly wage is $704, which translates into about $36,600 per year. Men's is about $44,770.

It's true that those CEOs, possibly as a result of the layoffs, may have been directly responsible for pushing their company's stock price higher, probably benefiting many, many investors. See Goldstein's story for more data on that.

But the wage differential still staggers: $44,770 -- assuming you still have a job and that it pays the median wage -- versus $49,650,000. That executive's pay is more than 1,100 times higher than the worker's. Sure, it matters what industry you work in, and what your skills are, and maybe how educated you are, and how many people you're responsible for. But does it matter that much?
. . . .
So the economy has recovered and it's back to normal. What a relief. I was really worried.
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/ceos-that-lay-off-workers-earn-more-study-2010-09-01
 
  • #305
brainstorm said:
There seems to be little capacity left to comprehend how an economy works when it's not a long-term subsidiary of appreciation-driven fiscal stimulus. Nowhere in economic theory, that I am familiar with, does it say that persistent appreciation of property values is a requirement for supply and demand to function properly.

Property value appreciation is largely a fuction of decreasing land near population hubs as world populations have grown over the last 10,000 years in response to our switch from a hunting and foraging lifestyle to an agrarian and industrialized one. Between about 70,000 BC until the time we developed agriculture, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population" had stabilized at approximately one million people worldwide. We're currently around 7,000 times greater than that. Such is the miracle of our age.

What is happening, however, is that the long trend of property-market appreciation has resulted in psychological resistance to imagining the deflationary trend could be anything but temporary. Couple this with the fact that there are extreme precedents for fiscal stimulus to ensure re-inflation, including pre-wwii new-deal programs, leading up the the creation of the military-industrial complex, and Freddie/Fannie as dispersion mechanisms to ensure the widespread distribution of government-stimulated income.

Money has probably been around longer than civilization, with makers of tools or skilled hunters perhaps trading their handiwork for meals. We're only two steps away from this barter economy. The first is the physical money step, wherein money is used in place of bartered goods. The second is the abstract money step, wherein dollars exist only as bits in a system which absolutely must be kept stable lest our world as we know it were to come crashing down.

Interestingly, barter economies work best when coupled with generosity, "lagniappe," as it were. Without it most of our society would be in the have-nots, oppressed, poor, and downtrodden, beholdent to those at the top in some way.

What it means is that everyone works a little harder than is necessary for one's own existence, and as a result, there's always a bit more of everything to go around. One of the best models of this in our modern world are the Amish.

It is not inconceivable we may one day return to a barter system based on man-hours, possibly at standardized rates for various commodities. An apple, for example, might be worth 0.03 man-hours, while a 3,000 sq ft ranch house on a quarter-acrew lot might be worth 10,000 man-hours. The man-hours would roughly reflect actual man-hours required for all aspects of development. Expert services in disciplines which are needed but in which few people have the skills required to become an expert might reflect the actual time and effort required to attain those skills, or they may be left to the economics of a barter economy.

As there are only so many hours in a day, "salaries" would flatten considerably, but we've seen this trend already. The salaries disparity between school teachers and engineers has been narrowing, and while each require different skill sets, both avenues require roughly the same level of time and effort to attain and remain current or qualified.

People are simply no longer capable of believing that government WON'T intervene in some way that re-establishes persistent inflation and therefore appreciation of their properties.

If the government would stop intervening at the drop of a hat, this belief would rapidly evaporate. However, that government wouldn't remain in office very long. Two hundred twenty-four years ago, our government had little ability to redistribute the wealth, so when deciding who to elect to office, most people's idea of our government was one of "what's best for our country?" as it was generally thought that what was best for the country would be best for the state, county, and municipality. These days there are so many programs designed to redistribute wealth that most people look at "what's best for me?" Little has changed in the minds of the people. It's just that there are so many programs for wealth redistribution that the demographics and political ideals of those who're elected to office have changed.

Eventually, either the economy will have to adjust to reset all costs of property-ownership to make them attractive as hobby property OR something will have to happen which makes it likely for them to generate income either as rentals or sales.

Agreed. I seriously considered either buying or building a house when I moved back to the U.S. last year, but between the economy and the way my finances are arranged, it meant both a lot of work (houses are a lot of work) and a reduction in freedom with my time. As it was, I chose to move into an apartment. I sometimes cringe when I consider the fact I'm not "building equity," but when I add up all the variables, especially the hidden ones which take so much time, it's pretty much a wash.

Of course, for people to occupy multiple residences, other factors also come into play such as the ability to structure employment around seasonal migrations, etc. Presumably if people could afford to work someplace warm in the winter and/or migrate someplace cooler for the summer, they would. But this would also create a heavy burden on infrastructure, including oil-supply distribution, unless a highly space-efficient and fuel-efficient form of long-distance transit became dominant. I'm thinking this would either involve electric trains running on nuclear power or something more radically energy-conservative such as nomadism where people spend several months/year hiking between destinations.

As for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_efficiency_in_transportation" , electric trains are very efficient, at an energy equivalence of between 400 and 700 pmpg (passenger mpg), but that's only when fully loaded and on cross-country trips. Trips with multiple stops are far less efficient, and hotel power (lights, air-conditioning) add a 35% penalty. One might think walking is efficient, as 228 pmpg, but given the many months a cross-country trip would make, it's not. Cycling actually gets 630 pmpg, and most people in decent shape could cross the U.S. in about a month.

The most efficient way to travel cross-country is to ship your vehicle in a car-carrier on a sleeper train, but this isn't the least expensive way to go. Amtrak hasn't cracked the nut on how best to do this, yet.

Sustained nomadism is actually not as an obscure a possibility as it may sound, considering advances in IT that could allow people to work en route using portable media, for example, or planning a work schedule that would allow them to work a few weeks in each city over a series of intermediate destinations. This would, of course, involve radical innovations in management and human-resources, etc. People would have to have places to stay, en route, for example, which would require maintenance and housekeeping on a scale that would exceed the capacity of existing motels and campgrounds, especially with current standards of housekeeping (fresh towels and sheets every day!).

While technology enhances mobility, I envision technology reducing nomadism, not increasing it. My grandfather was district sales manager for a large company for the last twenty-five years of his career. The days of wide-ranging traveling salesmen, however, are largely over. True, a lot of specialized IT apps require on-site installation, but while some of that is increasing, support and maintenance functions are largely handled remotely via VPNs.

Being out on the road is expensive, and hiking across country is far more expensive than driving it due to the cost in time, food, and gear. For example, I can travel from here to California in three days, costing me about $100 in hotels and food, with vehicle costs being the most expensive at about $276 in gas, oil, tires, and other direct wear-and tear items. Assuming an average, $50,000/yr in wages, the time cost comes to another $450 to $600, depending on the days travelled!

Total cost: nearly $900, and that's just one-way! $1,800 round-trip.

If I were to hike there instead, the cost in time alone would be more than $25,000. Add in meals, shoes, gear, etc., and you're looking at a $35,000 trip, minimum, one way, for a $70,000 RT cost.

Yet I can fly there and rent a car for a week, staying in a hotel, for just $750 RT. Peanuts, by comparison.

Nomadic lifestyles are NOT cheap. It's one of the reasons our world was only able to support (or we were able to support ourselves) a million humans in hunter-gather mode, while it can support 7,000 times as many humans in agrarian mode.
 
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  • #306
Astronuc said:
This is a growing concern. Chinese companies are accumulating substantial resources, and in some cases, near monopolies.

http://www.usnews.com/articles/news...new-energy-dependency-chinas-metals_print.htm
Molycorp (MCP) recently offered stock publicly. The stock price has more than doubled. It'll be interesting to watch.

Shares in junior miner Rare Element Resources were up as much as 28 percent on Monday, as buzz around the sector continued to boost miners with rare Earth properties in the United States.
http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKN1828089520101018

Glencore is a privately held company which produces and markets commodities. They have mining and minerals subsidiaries.
http://www.glencore.com/pages/group_structure_metals.htm

Just some examples of interesting developments in the global economy. It certainly does look like China is putting the squeeze on RE supplies, but that's only because they control about 97% of the global production. They had good forsight, and the rest of the world more or less ignored the obvious.

Now interestingly, the US government doesn't seem too concerned about folks who park supertankers (very large crude carriers) off-shore in order to put upward pressure on oil prices.

Is there really a difference between a government or a private corporation manipulating the market for one or more commodities?
 
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  • #307
mugaliens said:
Being out on the road is expensive, and hiking across country is far more expensive than driving it due to the cost in time, food, and gear. For example, I can travel from here to California in three days, costing me about $100 in hotels and food, with vehicle costs being the most expensive at about $276 in gas, oil, tires, and other direct wear-and tear items. Assuming an average, $50,000/yr in wages, the time cost comes to another $450 to $600, depending on the days travelled!

Total cost: nearly $900, and that's just one-way! $1,800 round-trip.

If I were to hike there instead, the cost in time alone would be more than $25,000. Add in meals, shoes, gear, etc., and you're looking at a $35,000 trip, minimum, one way, for a $70,000 RT cost.

Yet I can fly there and rent a car for a week, staying in a hotel, for just $750 RT. Peanuts, by comparison.

Nomadic lifestyles are NOT cheap. It's one of the reasons our world was only able to support (or we were able to support ourselves) a million humans in hunter-gather mode, while it can support 7,000 times as many humans in agrarian mode.

Recently, I've noticed some developments in urban camping in Europe, such as multistory tent platforms, that make it seem like larger scale nomadism could be possible with reduced costs. As I mentioned in my earlier post, much of the expense of traveling is due to the assumption that people should be less self-sufficient en route than they are at home. Motels, therefore, cater to this by providing room-cleaning, towels, linens, etc. with dedicated service personnel servicing travelers in ways they would service themselves at home. If travelers were self-servicing en route the way they would at home, you would think the possibility of living nomadically for the same cost as staying-put would become more of a possibility.

Hostels or camping facilities could provide showers, kitchens, and laundry facilities while people manage their own linens, towels, etc. or contribute their own labor to facility-maintenance. This all sounds incredibly alien from the perspective of a normative service culture where people expect everything to be done for them and labor is typically performed by individuals at a single workplace. However, consider that a personnel intermediary service could create an online system that keeps track of peoples work-hours at multiple sites en route to a destination. In this way, you could work as you travel, putting in hours at each subsequent facility you stayed at. This way, travel costs would be compensated or at least offset by labor contributions of travelers.

I think the biggest obstacle to widespread nomadism, however, is a general cultural suspicion for strangers in general and wandering strangers in particular. Many people would simply find it unsettling to have a large portion of the population of any given locality inhabited by transient residents. This is a prejudice based on stereotypes or just a sense that people aren't as socially responsible toward others they feel unlikely to encounter in the future.

Either way, if travelers were socially responsible, it could be good for people to spend a good portion of their time walking or biking from place to place while telecommuting using online networks that allow them to work from anywhere using wifi and cellular service. They could spend the fall walking/biking south, which would save a great deal in heating costs and CO2 output. Then they could spend the springs walking/biking north to escape the heat. Perhaps in the distant future, interstate highways will be shaded by trees and solar panels and the different lanes will be utilized by people biking, walking, using relatively slow electric vehicles, etc. with more rest-facilities, campgrounds, and self-service motels/hostels at shorter intervals.

If nothing else, people would be a lot healthier from all that walking/biking and they would be generating plenty of body-heat, which would reduce the need for heating and a/c, which would save loads of energy. If you compare this scenario with the energy-efficiency concept of the Matrix, this one seems a lot more pleasant, imo.
 
  • #308
brainstorm said:
they would be generating plenty of body-heat, which would reduce the need for heating and a/c, which would save loads of energy.

How would generating lots of body heat reduce the need for AC?
 
  • #309
CRGreathouse said:
How would generating lots of body heat reduce the need for AC?

Exercising outdoors helps acclimatize people to heat. Although this effect seems slight by objective measures, I think the psychological effect is significant. By exercising outdoors, resting feels relatively cool by contrast to exertion. Compare this to spending most of the time in a/c and then exercising outdoors in the heat, where returning to the a/c feels almost like a need and even cooler temperatures are desired to return to an indoor comfort level.

This seems like a deviation from the thread topic, but it is actually quite pertinent because climate control can be quite expensive, which raises the amount of income people need so that they can afford higher utility costs. Lower standards of climate control would lower business costs for retailers and other workplaces as well as lowering people's monthly expenses.
 
  • #310
Astronuc said:
Just some examples of interesting developments in the global economy. It certainly does look like China is putting the squeeze on RE supplies, but that's only because they control about 97% of the global production. They had good forsight, and the rest of the world more or less ignored the obvious.
Yes apparently the Chinese have implemented an export quota on Rare Earth's, saying it was a matter of their 'sovereignty', blah, blah. Well the WTO prohibits extra-treaty export quotas. The US&Europe could easily make the argument that banning the import of Chinese manufactures was a matter of their sovereignty, blah, blah, if that was all that mattered.
 
  • #311
Astronuc said:
Molycorp (MCP) recently offered stock publicly. The stock price has more than doubled. It'll be interesting to watch.

Shares in junior miner Rare Element Resources were up as much as 28 percent on Monday, as buzz around the sector continued to boost miners with rare Earth properties in the United States.
http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKN1828089520101018

Glencore is a privately held company which produces and markets commodities. They have mining and minerals subsidiaries.
http://www.glencore.com/pages/group_structure_metals.htm

Just some examples of interesting developments in the global economy. It certainly does look like China is putting the squeeze on RE supplies, but that's only because they control about 97% of the global production. They had good forsight, and the rest of the world more or less ignored the obvious.

Now interestingly, the US government doesn't seem too concerned about folks who park supertankers (very large crude carriers) off-shore in order to put upward pressure on oil prices.

Is there really a difference between a government or a private corporation manipulating the market for one or more commodities?

China's strategic planning regarding the rare Earth's is alarming.

When they tried to buy Unocal a few years ago they weren't thinking about the oil.

The GAO report lists the mine at Mountain Pass, California as perhaps the largest non-Chinese rare Earth deposit in the world. That same mine almost slipped out of U.S. hands unnoticed during a Chinese bid for the U.S. oil company Unocal in 2005.

Unocal had purchased the Mountain Pass mine owner, Molycorp, back in 1978. But that fact went mostly unnoticed during the media and Congressional uproar over the possible threat to U.S. energy security, which eventually led the Chinese company to withdraw its bid.

http://www.technewsdaily.com/us-military-supply-of-rare-earth-elements-not-secure-0430/

If China gains a strangle hold on RE we can kiss recovery good bye.
 
  • #312
It is in China's best interest for America to recover. They need us to buy all their stuff. The only reason their economy has been continuing to grow as of late is because they implemented a massive stimulus into their economy, and unlike in America, there is no problem with private property, environmentalists, plus a lot of their corporations are government-owned and run, and the banking system is government-run. So when they tell the banks to lend, they lend. And when they tell the businesses to take the loans, they do so.

Much of their economy right now is based on construction, and they have been continuing to build skyscrapers even though many of the current ones are vacant. The Chinese government can only continue to stimulate their economy for so long with this artificial demand. They need American demand to come back into play, and that requires a healthy American economy.
 
  • #313
CAC1001 said:
It is in China's best interest for America to recover. They need us to buy all their stuff. The only reason their economy has been continuing to grow as of late is because they implemented a massive stimulus into their economy,
Do you have a source for the figures on Chinese stimulus? First, what I'd seen earlier was not 'massive' by the US standard, and second any reporting on Chinese government spending is only as accurate as the Chinese government allows it to be.
 
  • #314
mheslep said:
Do you have a source for the figures on Chinese stimulus? First, what I'd seen earlier was not 'massive' by the US standard, and second any reporting on Chinese government spending is only as accurate as the Chinese government allows it to be.

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2010/07/chinas-suspect-economic-data
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/21/business/global/21iht-rglofinch.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_economic_stimulus_program

It was about $586 billion. China has a $4.9 trillion GDP (as of 2009), so $586 billion is about 12% of their GDP. By "massive," I meant in proportion ot the size of their overall economy. Also, in China, stimulus probably has a much better chance of working than in a place like the United States.

I agree on one must take Chinese figures with a grain of salt, there was some speculaton a while back that they were overinflating their GDP.
 
  • #315
CAC1001 said:
It was about $586 billion. China has a $4.9 trillion GDP (as of 2009), so $586 billion is about 12% of their GDP. By "massive," I meant in proportion ot the size of their overall economy.
Yes they say it was about $586B, and that's over a couple years.

Also, in China, stimulus probably has a much better chance of working than in a place like the United States.
Why? That is, why would spending drive demand more in a communist government / ~capitalist market country?
 
  • #316
mheslep said:
Yes they say it was about $586B, and that's over a couple years.

Just curious, but why are you skeptical of their claimed size of their stimulus? For example, I can understand China perhaps overinflating their GDP numbers, but why their stimulus size?

mheslep said:
Why? That is, why would spending drive demand more in a communist government / ~capitalist market country?

Well I am not saying it is guaranteed, but my thinking is that in a country like America, there are environmentalist groups, labor unions, various special interests, etc...that could get in the way of various infrastructure projects being built. They don't have these in China in the way we do in America, and because of the central government, infrastructure projects I would imagine can start being built far more quickly. If they tell the banks to lend, they lend, they tell state-owned corporations to take the loans, they take them, and so forth.

Of course I could be way wrong, I know Japan tried a ton of infrastructure spending, but didn't get much economic growth from it (although in Japan, their culture isn't very entrepreneurial from what I've read (failure is very looked down upon) and also their national debt level might be dragging their economy?).
 
  • #317
CAC1001 said:
It is in China's best interest for America to recover. They need us to buy all their stuff. The only reason their economy has been continuing to grow as of late is because they implemented a massive stimulus into their economy, and unlike in America, there is no problem with private property, environmentalists, plus a lot of their corporations are government-owned and run, and the banking system is government-run. So when they tell the banks to lend, they lend. And when they tell the businesses to take the loans, they do so.

Much of their economy right now is based on construction, and they have been continuing to build skyscrapers even though many of the current ones are vacant. The Chinese government can only continue to stimulate their economy for so long with this artificial demand. They need American demand to come back into play, and that requires a healthy American economy.

It might be in the interest of the Chinese government, but the eventual interest of the Chinese people is to decouple from America so they can see the things they produce remain theirs, and develop a first world style economy where there is more equality, less of an authoritarian upper class, and where industrial production isn't destroying their environment.

From the economic point of view of the Chinese people, it would be ideal if America had to start repaying their debt to China, and the consumer-ownership/producer-worker paradigm was reversed.
 
  • #318
The Chinese may want to be able to consume the things they produce, but they also want to be able to export them as that means more money.
 
  • #319
CAC1001 said:
Just curious, but why are you skeptical of their claimed size of their stimulus? For example, I can understand China perhaps overinflating their GDP numbers, but why their stimulus size?
I'd seen several sources indicating pressure was coming from the US in particular not just on China but to the rest of the world as well to also boost fiscal spending so that the US currency would not be the only one under pressure from deficit spending via printing money (among other reasons). Geitner and Bernanke made a lot of noise abroad in this regard. Germany in particular resisted. Therefore since there was external pressure for China to increase its stimulus, but internal resistance, then their stimulus numbers might be bogus.

Well I am not saying it is guaranteed, but my thinking is that in a country like America, there are environmentalist groups, labor unions, various special interests, etc...that could get in the way of various infrastructure projects being built. They don't have these in China in the way we do in America, and because of the central government, infrastructure projects I would imagine can start being built far more quickly.
Fare enough.

If they tell the banks to lend, they lend, they tell state-owned corporations to take the loans, they take them, and so forth.
Hmm, I doubt this goes very far, as someone has to take responsibility for the risk of default when they're told to 'lend'.

Of course I could be way wrong, I know Japan tried a ton of infrastructure spending, but didn't get much economic growth from it
Agreed, the lost decade and so on.
 
  • #320
mheslep said:
I'd seen several sources indicating pressure was coming from the US in particular not just on China but to the rest of the world as well to also boost fiscal spending so that the US currency would not be the only one under pressure from deficit spending via printing money (among other reasons). Geitner and Bernanke made a lot of noise abroad in this regard. Germany in particular resisted. Therefore since there was external pressure for China to increase its stimulus, but internal resistance, then their stimulus numbers might be bogus.

There was internal resistance in China on stimulus?
 
  • #321
mheslep said:
Why? That is, why would spending drive demand more in a communist government / ~capitalist market country?

It's not that they're communists. It's that they're totalitarian. Look at how efficiently German stimulus spending in the 1930s boosted economic output. A democracy is by design inefficient in the way it spends money because it needs to appease voters and can't simply put the money to the most effective use. China has a pretty clear master plan of spending primarily on manufacturing and then keeping their currency at an artificially low percentage of the US dollar to drive export demand. Part of Bernanke's QE plan was essentially a similar gambit. Devalue the US dollar to make US goods cheaper abroad, increase demand for exports, and boost GDP. Part of the problem we'd been having was that the worldwide "flight to quality" boosted demand for the dollar and kept the prices of US goods undesirably high. China's been doing this same thing for forty years without resistance from an opposition party or an informed voting public.

In fact, currency devaluation would have been the obvious answer for Ireland and Greece, but they couldn't because their currency is issued by the ECB and not by their own central banks, so they had no choice but to face austerity and severe economic contraction.
 
  • #322
loseyourname said:
China has a pretty clear master plan of spending primarily on manufacturing and then keeping their currency at an artificially low percentage of the US dollar to drive export demand. Part of Bernanke's QE plan was essentially a similar gambit. Devalue the US dollar to make US goods cheaper abroad, increase demand for exports, and boost GDP. Part of the problem we'd been having was that the worldwide "flight to quality" boosted demand for the dollar and kept the prices of US goods undesirably high. China's been doing this same thing for forty years without resistance from an opposition party or an informed voting public.

In fact, currency devaluation would have been the obvious answer for Ireland and Greece, but they couldn't because their currency is issued by the ECB and not by their own central banks, so they had no choice but to face austerity and severe economic contraction.

So what would happen if the US and Chinese governments would get in a competition for global demand by devaluating the currency more? Would global prices for most things become practically free in Euros? Or would the EU follow suit and devalue the Euro as well to keep up? If governments keep harmonizing the various global currencies, wouldn't they have to move to start regulating things like business costs and labor to stimulate productivity?
 
  • #323
loseyourname said:
It's not that they're communists. It's that they're totalitarian. Look at how efficiently German stimulus spending in the 1930s boosted economic output. A democracy is by design inefficient in the way it spends money because it needs to appease voters and can't simply put the money to the most effective use. China has a pretty clear master plan of spending primarily on manufacturing and then keeping their currency at an artificially low percentage of the US dollar to drive export demand.
You are asserting totalitarian systems are more efficient in this regard, based on the assertion that a dictator knows better what is 'effective' than does the populace engaged in the daily give and take of the market place. We see pop dilettantes like Thomas Friedman beating that drum for China nearly weekly. I accept almost none of it. And I would hope, given the history of similar claims about the Soviet Union, Warsaw Pact Europe, etc, also published with much relish in the NYT in their day, that such claims would receive more examination.
 
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  • #324
loseyourname said:
Part of Bernanke's QE plan was essentially a similar gambit. Devalue the US dollar to make US goods cheaper abroad, increase demand for exports, and boost GDP.
That doesn't follow as primary cause, given US exports are http://ita.doc.gov/td/industry/otea/ttp/Top_Trade_Partners.pdf" of the US economy (~1$T).
 
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  • #325
mheslep said:
That doesn't follow as primary cause, given US exports are http://ita.doc.gov/td/industry/otea/ttp/Top_Trade_Partners.pdf" of the US economy (~1$T).

Even if you count all the treasury bonds exported?
 
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  • #326
brainstorm, trashing the US dollar doesn't make people want to take debt in dollars
 
  • #327
brainstorm said:
Even if you count all the treasury bonds exported?
The discussion is about that which is counted as GDP. Debt is not.
 
  • #328
CAC1001 said:
The Chinese may want to be able to consume the things they produce, but they also want to be able to export them as that means more money.

Yes, and in the short term they want to increase their exports. But it would be naive of us to assume this is what will occur indefinitely. Besides money, what the Chinese have gotten from the US is technology and the know how of how to industrialize and grow their economy. But eventually, if the US can not provide something tangible to China (especially considering the US money is ultimately being fueled by loans from China) it will not be in the economic interest of the Chinese people to continue the current export pattern. Imagine we have an island. A man fishes, a man hunts, a man grows vegetables. I say, well, I am eating their vegetables, eating their fish, and eating their game, so I am giving them all something to do!
 
  • #329
mheslep said:
That doesn't follow as primary cause, given US exports are http://ita.doc.gov/td/industry/otea/ttp/Top_Trade_Partners.pdf" of the US economy (~1$T).

That might have been part of it, but I think a lot of it was just keep fueling the bubble.
 
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  • #330
loseyourname said:
It's not that they're communists. It's that they're totalitarian. Look at how efficiently German stimulus spending in the 1930s boosted economic output. A democracy is by design inefficient in the way it spends money because it needs to appease voters and can't simply put the money to the most effective use. China has a pretty clear master plan of spending primarily on manufacturing and then keeping their currency at an artificially low percentage of the US dollar to drive export demand. Part of Bernanke's QE plan was essentially a similar gambit. Devalue the US dollar to make US goods cheaper abroad, increase demand for exports, and boost GDP. Part of the problem we'd been having was that the worldwide "flight to quality" boosted demand for the dollar and kept the prices of US goods undesirably high. China's been doing this same thing for forty years without resistance from an opposition party or an informed voting public.

In fact, currency devaluation would have been the obvious answer for Ireland and Greece, but they couldn't because their currency is issued by the ECB and not by their own central banks, so they had no choice but to face austerity and severe economic contraction.

It has only been relatively recently that China has grown economically, and it was a result of liberalization of their economy. The centralized five year plans were economic disasters.

A lot of the growth has been from western corporations contracting out to take advantage of the cheaper labor. It is questionable whether China could have grown without this partnership.
 
  • #331
Galteeth said:
Yes, and in the short term they want to increase their exports. But it would be naive of us to assume this is what will occur indefinitely. Besides money, what the Chinese have gotten from the US is technology and the know how of how to industrialize and grow their economy. But eventually, if the US can not provide something tangible to China (especially considering the US money is ultimately being fueled by loans from China) it will not be in the economic interest of the Chinese people to continue the current export pattern. Imagine we have an island. A man fishes, a man hunts, a man grows vegetables. I say, well, I am eating their vegetables, eating their fish, and eating their game, so I am giving them all something to do!

I think the U.S. will have plenty to offer China, considering how much we produce. No country can do everything.
 
  • #332
mheslep said:
You are asserting totalitarian systems are more efficient in this regard, based on the assertion that a dictator knows better what is 'effective' than does the populace engaged in the daily give and take of the market place.

No I'm not. I'm not saying anything at all about the allocation of private capital. Leave that to the markets. I'm just talking about the effectiveness of government stimulus spending. There's hardly any question that granting government funds to build an airport where there is high demand for airport travel is an optimally effective use of funds appropriated for building airports. In China, that's what would happen. In the U.S., funds would be split between the senators with the best connections at getting pork money funneled into their states whether or not there was any demand for what was being built.
 
  • #333
loseyourname said:
No I'm not. I'm not saying anything at all about the allocation of private capital. Leave that to the markets. I'm just talking about the effectiveness of government stimulus spending. There's hardly any question that granting government funds to build an airport where there is high demand for airport travel is an optimally effective use of funds appropriated for building airports. In China, that's what would happen.
That would happen in China based on what theory? Why wouldn't the airport be located on, say, the whim of the Prime Minister's nephew, with objectors to the nepotism thrown into prison on a similar whim and to hell what with what's most effective for the country?
 
  • #334
I'm not sure this is a good sign.
http://articles.latimes.com/keyword/stock-market/recent/2

"BUSINESS
Wall Street's main focus will be on Fed, not corporate earnings
October 11, 2010 | By Reuters
Not even earnings reports from big names such as Google Inc. and General Electric Co. this week will be able to pull Wall Street's focus away from the possibility of more cheap cash flowing in from the Federal Reserve. Normally when the likes of JPMorgan Chase & Co. or Intel Corp. ? which are also reporting this week ? tell investors how much they earned in the previous quarter, the stock market hangs on every word. But after Friday's surprisingly anemic payrolls report, the increased likelihood the Fed will buy more assets like Treasury bonds to stimulate the economy has investors ignoring the usual benchmarks.
"
 
  • #335
Partly as a result, some economists now predict that it could take years or even a decade for the American economy to regain the levels of employment and vigor achieved before the 2008 crisis. The growing political pressure for cuts in federal spending — along with plunging consumer confidence and companies that seem more intent on cutting costs and hoarding cash than investing in new growth — have led economists to talk of the United States’ entering a grim new era of austerity.

That is very close to what befell Japan two decades ago, . . .
U.S. Hears Echo of Japan’s Woes
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/30/world/asia/30japan.htm

The question is - cut what?

Then there's the Attack of the Zombie bonds - or Toxic Assets, Part II :rolleyes:
http://marketplace.publicradio.org/display/web/2010/10/29/pm-zombie-bonds-attack/

So the economy grew at a roaring pace of 2% in the 3rd quarter, but I have to wonder how much the aggregate debt grew. 8%? 10%? or more?

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/30/business/economy/30econ.html
FYI - http://marketplace.publicradio.org/display/web/2010/10/29/pm-factors-behind-gdp-growth/

http://www.census.gov/indicator/www/ustrade.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/15/business/economy/15econ.html

http://www.federalbudget.com/

Federal Debt As Pct GDP
http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/federal_deficit_chart.html


On a cheery note for some -
The Wall Street Journal recently estimated that Wall Street bonuses in 2010 will total $144 billion, in a year that has been less than stellar for most banks.
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/10/28/on-wall-street-all-reward-no-risk/
 
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  • #337
WhoWee said:
LOL - I'm sure glad President Obama was successful with his "Wall Street Reform". These bonuses are CLEARLY Bush's fault. LOL
Reform? I just seems like business as usual.
 
  • #338
Astronuc said:
Reform? I just seems like business as usual.
JUST like usual. Put Wall Street insiders in charge and let them loose.

The Fed does everything it can to keep money dirt-cheap for speculators, so they can gamble with our cash. It's time they raised interest rates so that people who save and invest can get a fair return on our money. Keeping interest rates low does not create jobs - it encourages speculation. Higher interest rates would do more to establish discipline in our markets than a whole book-full of (unenforced, probably) regulations.
 
  • #339
On Obama's Wall Street reform, keep in mind that a lot of the regulations to the reform have not even been written yet. That is one of the complaints from Republicans. That the bill was passed, and when the regulations start getting written, it is going to bring in armies of lobbyists from the big financial institutions, who will want the regulations written to benefit them.

On Japan, one thing I remember reading is that Japan lacks the entrepreneurship America does, which could partially explain their stalled economy. In Japan, failure is very looked down upon. Japanese businessmen who have lost their job have been known to go out each morning and pretend to go off to work because they are so ashamed. Some also have been known to kill themselves with the really big screwups. It's the influence of that old Samurai culture or something. If American culture was like Japan, quite a few of our Wall Street guys might have committed suicide.

This averseness to risk has the effect of discouraging business startups in Japan. In America, by contrast, the image of the successful entrepreneur oftentimes is the guy who failed three or four times before finally succeeding. America is a lot more tolerant of risk. As such, I don't know if our economy will suffer the same fate as the Japanese.

turbo-1 said:
JUST like usual. Put Wall Street insiders in charge and let them loose.

The Fed does everything it can to keep money dirt-cheap for speculators, so they can gamble with our cash. It's time they raised interest rates so that people who save and invest can get a fair return on our money. Keeping interest rates low does not create jobs - it encourages speculation. Higher interest rates would do more to establish discipline in our markets than a whole book-full of (unenforced, probably) regulations.

Raising interest rates during a bad economy can wreak havoc on the economy though. Also Congress wouldn't like it, and I doubt the Obama administration would give it any support either because it could mess up the economy further right as the 2012 season is starting up.
 
  • #340
turbo-1 said:
The Fed does everything it can to keep money dirt-cheap for speculators, so they can gamble with our cash. It's time they raised interest rates so that people who save and invest can get a fair return on our money. Keeping interest rates low does not create jobs - it encourages speculation. Higher interest rates would do more to establish discipline in our markets than a whole book-full of (unenforced, probably) regulations.
Do you think it might also have the effect of making labor markets more competitive by securely anchoring people in debt so that they have to do anything their employers want to keep their jobs and take any job they can get, even if they don't want it?

edit: I should clarify that I meant by seducing people into taking on a lot of debt by offering relatively low payments.
 
  • #341
brainstorm said:
Do you think it might also have the effect of making labor markets more competitive by securely anchoring people in debt so that they have to do anything their employers want to keep their jobs and take any job they can get, even if they don't want it?

edit: I should clarify that I meant by seducing people into taking on a lot of debt by offering relatively low payments.

I think FAR too many people are now comfortable taking Government subsidies.
 
  • #342
WhoWee said:
I think FAR too many people are now comfortable taking Government subsidies.
Well, just wait until you see what they do when they come the realization that the subsidies are not only not free, but that they're not going to be any better off because the government was the financial intermediary and the money was "subsidies" instead of "loans." Sure, it stimulates spending to tell people money is a gift that they won't have to pay back.

But what do they think happens to the money after they spend it? It goes into people's pockets who are going to use it to get as much work out of them as they possibly can. This basically means that spending now sets you up for a subsequent period of economic exploitation, but as usual, many people only look at the present or the short-term and ignore the future and the long-term.
 
  • #343
Astronuc said:
U.S. Hears Echo of Japan’s Woes
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/30/world/asia/30japan.htm

]

Thanks for that one. This deserves a thread of its own.

NYT said:
Mr. Kato led a government advisory committee that concluded that the economy, which was then finally starting to rebound from the collapse of its 1980s land and stock bubbles, was healthy enough to raise the national consumption tax to 5 percent from 3 percent.

Aimed at reducing deficits, the tax increase instead quickly snuffed out the fragile recovery, pushing Japan to the brink of a financial meltdown and thrusting the nation deeper into the economic morass from which it has yet to emerge even today

Think Pelosi and Co will ever admit as follows?
“Our sins are large,” Mr. Kato, now president of Kaetsu University in Tokyo, said ruefully. “I hope the rest of the world can learn from this mistake.”
 
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  • #344
turbo-1 said:
JUST like usual. Put Wall Street insiders in charge and let them loose.

The Fed does everything it can to keep money dirt-cheap for speculators, so they can gamble with our cash.

I feel the same way. But I don't know how the Feds can keep the money away from the speculators, without keeping it away from us.

So I joined a local tax activist group yesterday.

The leader of the group supports http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h111-4191&tab=summary".
HR 4191 said:
Amends the Internal Revenue Code to impose an excise tax on certain securities transactions, including transactions in stocks, futures, swaps, credit default swaps, and options. etc. etc. etc.

I think it's a partial solution to what you are referring to.

Being that I am now a stock market investor, I've been following what goes on lately, and it is very interesting to say the least. Personally, I think technology has jumped way ahead of regulation, and the above bill is a start. It will of course attract a lot of opposition from wall street, and already has. It would mean a more stable market, which is not what a lot of them want. Some of them even make a living investing in the instability. How ridiculous is that?

What do you think? Can 100 partial solutions solve the whole problem?
 
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  • #345
OmCheeto said:
Can 100 partial solutions solve the whole problem?

I'm more inclined to think that the 100 would interact in unforeseen ways, making them at least as likely to cause great harm as to solve the problem.
 
  • #346
OmCheeto said:
I feel the same way. But I don't know how the Feds can keep the money away from the speculators, without keeping it away from us.

So I joined a local tax activist group yesterday.

The leader of the group supports http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h111-4191&tab=summary".


I think it's a partial solution to what you are referring to.

Being that I am now a stock market investor, I've been following what goes on lately, and it is very interesting to say the least. Personally, I think technology has jumped way ahead of regulation, and the above bill is a start. It will of course attract a lot of opposition from wall street, and already has. It would mean a more stable market, which is not what a lot of them want. Some of them even make a living investing in the instability. How ridiculous is that?

What do you think? Can 100 partial solutions solve the whole problem?

Technology has definitely jumped ahead of regulation. Most of the top investment bank executives don't understand the new technology, except that it makes money.

This is worth 48 minutes of your time if you haven't seen it. It was actually produced by Dutch PBS.

QUANTS; THE ALCHEMISTS OF WALL STREET

http://www.republicmedia.tv/?p=1750


EDIT: Don't be discouraged by the over simplification at first. It really gets involved in a few minutes.
 
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  • #347
Interesting comment about "taking risk with money should be compensated, but taking risk with other peoples' money should not be compensated".

"Banking has lost touch with its purpose. It's become dangerous"

Increase in rate of financial crises since 1990. It sounds like someone needs to develop a stability analysis for financial systems.

The quant software is tool - it can be used for good, or it can be misused.
 
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  • #348
CRGreathouse said:
I'm more inclined to think that the 100 would interact in unforeseen ways, making them at least as likely to cause great harm as to solve the problem.

That is about the most defeatist thing I've ever read.

I would agree that trying to fix things that are not broken will almost always result in the things being broken. But not fixing something that is broken, well, try that the next time the brake line in your car springs a leak.

[insert cute CRASH! metaphor here]
 
  • #349
OmCheeto said:
Being that I am now a stock market investor, I've been following what goes on lately, and it is very interesting to say the least. Personally, I think technology has jumped way ahead of regulation, and the above bill is a start. It will of course attract a lot of opposition from wall street, and already has. It would mean a more stable market, which is not what a lot of them want. Some of them even make a living investing in the instability. How ridiculous is that?
High-frequency electronic traders create instability and leverage it into profit with trades that might last only a second or less. I think that taxing such trades would be a good idea. High-frequency trades are not made based on perceptions of the value (current or future) of the commodities being invested in - just the price. It's enough to make one long for the short-sighted quarterly-profit-based trading models, which I detest.

I watched my fomer employer (a large paper company) slide from being a value-based enterprise that built market share and assets gradually and steadily, to being obsessed with short-term profit goals and short-term advantages over its competitors. That is stupid in the extreme. When you have a company that relies on its land holdings, and long-term management of the timber resources, you don't turn it over to bean-counters who know nothing about the business. The transformation began about 30 years ago and was complete soon after. I'm glad I never took "advantage" of the employee stock-ownership option.

Want to ruin your company? Turn it over to dilettants and reward them with cheap stock options, bonuses, or preferred stock whenever the company makes quarterly profit goals or experiences increases in stock prices. That's a game they will quickly turn to their advantage, to the detriment of the company and the holders of common shares.
 
  • #350
OmCheeto said:
That is about the most defeatist thing I've ever read.

Heh.

I advocate extreme, sweeping change. This would no doubt come with its fair share of problems which would need to be worked out. I don't think it's particularly defeatist to say that a 'death by a thousand cuts' series of changes would be every bit as risky.
 

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