What are the potential solutions for the EU refugee crisis?

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In summary, the EU and refugee crises are a problem. Astronuc created a thread concerning the issue but it doesn't seem to be attracting much attention. There is discussion of what to do about the problem, but there are some flaws in the ideas being discussed. There is also a problem of nationalism reducing effectiveness of state apparatus of repression.
  • #211
StatGuy2000 said:
These were posted back last Thursday, when at the time there wasn't evidence that Syrian refugees were involved in the mass assaults.
I really don't understand why this disconnect still exists. I'll repeat: The first post discussing the attacks contains a link to a BBC story that paraphrases a police officer saying he'd detained 8 card-carrying "asylum seekers" in connection with the attacks. *That's evidence.*

Given that this story was posted in a thread about the EU refugee crisis, you really should take a step back and consider how Hossam could have known to post the story here. It wasn't a lucky guess. I suggest that you be more open-minded to considering the evidence that was available, rather than shutting your eyes/ears and pretending none existed.
As for poisoning the well by talking about reactive hatred -- again, at no time did I say that anyone on this forum expressed reactive hatred. What I was saying was that right-wing elements in the US (e.g. Donald Trump, Ted Cruz, Fox News commentators) have sought to link the mass assaults to the Syrian refugee crisis and therefore insinuate that Syrian refugees are dangerous.
Yes: That's poisoning the well. The implication you are making is that by suggesting a link, one puts themselves in the same category as those such as Donald Trump (et al). [edit] It is a way to both discourage others from staking out a similar position by pre-emptively/automatically comparing them with an undesirable and it is a way to avoid having a logical argument about a subject (ie: if Trump holds the position, it must be bad -- no need to discuss why).
 
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  • #212
russ_watters said:
I really don't understand why this disconnect still exists. I'll repeat: The first post discussing the attacks contains a link to a BBC story that paraphrases a police officer saying he'd detained 8 card-carrying "asylum seekers" in connection with the attacks. *That's evidence.*

Given that this story was posted in a thread about the EU refugee crisis, you really should take a step back and consider how Hossam could have known to post the story here. It wasn't a lucky guess. I suggest that you be more open-minded to considering the evidence that was available, rather than shutting your eyes/ears and pretending none existed.

For your information, there are more "asylum seekers" in Germany than just Syrians. So the fact that the BBC story you are referring to paraphrases a police officer saying he'd detained 8 card-carrying "asylum seekers" in connection with the attacks is suggestive, but is definitely not evidence. Also, as an American you should know that there is the notion of "innocent until proven guilty" -- we don't know how many of the people that officer detained were ultimately criminally charged, let alone were actually involved in the attacks. All I'm saying is not to jump to the conclusion that the mass sexual assaults in Germany is somehow definitively linked to the EU refugee crisis. That is all.

Yes: That's poisoning the well. The implication you are making is that by suggesting a link, one puts themselves in the same category as those such as Donald Trump (et al). [edit] It is a way to both discourage others from staking out a similar position by pre-emptively/automatically comparing them with an undesirable and it is a way to avoid having a logical argument about a subject (ie: if Trump holds the position, it must be bad -- no need to discuss why).

russ, I respectfully disagree. Discussions about refugees and other such topics don't occur in a political vacuum. Ever since the Syrian refugee crisis has reached the public consciousness here in the West, there have been reactionary voices stoking fear (whether the refugees are members of ISIS, even most of the refugees are fleeing from ISIS, as an example), in both the US and elsewhere. You cannot deny that those voices stoking fear have only grown louder with both the terrorists attacks in Paris and the mass sexual assaults in Cologne. So I do not think it is at all unreasonable to be mindful when bringing up the discussion of the assaults and exploring the (potential) links with the Syrian refugees that we be extra diligent that we are basing any such conclusions on carefully investigated fact. And that we don't simplistically conclude the following: accepting refugees = bad. Because most Americans (who have an unsophisticated understanding of the rest of the world) I'm afraid may conclude precisely that, and as an American I don't think you can deny that.
 
  • #213
HossamCFD said:
The attacks appear to have been more widespread across Europe than initially reported
Indeed. An article titled

Swedish police face allegations of covering up mass sex assault

appeared in the news today.

EDIT: Please note that these are not just "allegations". As you can read in the article:

Peter Agren, who was in charge of policing at the festival, was reported by Dagens Nyheter as saying about the cover-up allegations: “This is a sore point. We sometimes dare not to say how it is because we think it might play into the hands of the Sweden Democrats.”
 
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  • #214
StatGuy2000 said:
All I'm saying is not to jump to the conclusion that the mass sexual assaults in Germany is somehow definitively linked to the EU refugee crisis.
Of course it is. Until recently, and most likely still, there is no checking whatsoever of who enters the EU. This is very bad, because it allows not only benign people to enter, but also all kinds of scum. In order to protect the citizens of the EU, as well as those refugees with good intentions that I very much welcome, irrespective of their religion, it is essential to stop covering up incidents and start hitting back when under siege.
 
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  • #215
Krylov said:
Of course it is. Until recently, and most likely still, there is no checking whatsoever of who enters the EU. This is very bad, because it allows not only benign people to enter, but also all kinds of scum. In order to protect the citizens of the EU, as well as those refugees with good intentions that I very much welcome, irrespective of their religion, it is essential to stop covering up incidents and start hitting back when under siege.

Let me ask you something, Krylov. When you think about Syrian refugees, are the first thoughts that come to your mind are that these people are "scum" and that you are "under siege", or are your thoughts more along the lines of people "with good intentions"?
 
  • #216
StatGuy2000 said:
Let me ask you something, Krylov. When you think about Syrian refugees, are the first thoughts that come to your mind are that these people are "scum" and that you are "under siege", or are your thoughts more along the lines of people "with good intentions"?
Both, and everything in between. Syrian refugees are just like ordinary people.

EDIT: By the way, on a much more general note, when I think of people from North Africa and the Middle East, reading Hossam's posts now and then over the past couple of weeks really made me a lot more optimistic. (I don't solicit "likes" for this, I just wanted to take this opportunity to point it out.)
 
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  • #217
StatGuy2000 said:
Discussions about refugees and other such topics don't occur in a political vacuum.
Be that as it may, it is not a valid excuse for derailing every current event discussion on PF to some political candidate on the other side of the world that concerns your particular sensibilities.
 
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  • #218
Krylov said:
Indeed. An article titled

Swedish police face allegations of covering up mass sex assault

appeared in the news today.

EDIT: Please note that these are not just "allegations". As you can read in the article:

Peter Agren, who was in charge of policing at the festival, was reported by Dagens Nyheter as saying about the cover-up allegations: “This is a sore point. We sometimes dare not to say how it is because we think it might play into the hands of the Sweden Democrats.”

Yes, yes, they are just allegations. http://www.dn.se/nyheter/sverige/qu...ns-handling-of-events-in-the-kungstradgarden/

The context of the quote by Agren was that they did not wish to potentially provoke violence against immigrants. The Sweden Democrats are a fringe right-wing party that originated with the Swedish Neo-Nazi movement, the majority of the Swedish government refuses to cooperate with them. Not wanting to encourage them is thoroughly justifiable, since the investigation would not be able to complete if it became politicized.
 
  • #219
StatGuy2000 said:
Let me ask you something, Krylov. When you think about Syrian refugees, are the first thoughts that come to your mind are that these people are "scum" and that you are "under siege", or are your thoughts more along the lines of people "with good intentions"?
The point's not getting across.

Let me ask you SG. When you think about those women claiming assault in Cologne, are your first thoughts that they were asking for assault by their behavior and dress, that the women had it coming to them, that the women make too much of the so called "assaults", and those women really don't matter compared to the other troubles in the world, or are your thoughts more along the lines of innocent women, grotesquely abused and deserving prompt justice?
 
  • #220
mheslep said:
The point's not getting across.

Let me ask you SG. When you think about those women claiming assault in Cologne, are your first thoughts that they were asking for assault by their behavior and dress, that the women had it coming to them, that the women make too much of the so called "assaults", and those women really don't matter compared to the other troubles in the world, or are your thoughts more along the lines of innocent women, grotesquely abused and deserving prompt justice?

Right, they deserve prompt justice. So arrest the attackers, grant the victims whatever restitution they are owed, and increase the police presence in that area. I honestly do not see what is so complicated about this. I don't think anyone here is trying to apologize for the acts that were committed and with all due respect I think that it's a bit intellectually dishonest to imply that someone is.

russ_watters said:
I really don't understand why this disconnect still exists. I'll repeat: The first post discussing the attacks contains a link to a BBC story that paraphrases a police officer saying he'd detained 8 card-carrying "asylum seekers" in connection with the attacks. *That's evidence.*

No, that is a guy saying something. At the time, his claims had not yet been officially substantiated, more definitive evidence has emerged since then.
 
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  • #221
StatGuy2000 said:
For your information, there are more "asylum seekers" in Germany than just Syrians.
Statguy, near as I can tell, *you* are the one who added the "Syrians" qualification to the discussion - it certainly doesn't appear in my post or the article we're discussing. And mhselp pointed this out to you when you accused him of bringing it up, when he didn't. So, yes, there are more than just Syrian asylum seekers and I agree it is improper for you to attempt to constrain the discussion as such.
So the fact that the BBC story you are referring to paraphrases a police officer saying he'd detained 8 card-carrying "asylum seekers" in connection with the attacks is suggestive, but is definitely not evidence. Also, as an American you should know that there is the notion of "innocent until proven guilty" -- we don't know how many of the people that officer detained were ultimately criminally charged, let alone were actually involved in the attacks. All I'm saying is not to jump to the conclusion that the mass sexual assaults in Germany is somehow definitively linked to the EU refugee crisis. That is all.
Please step back and think about what you are saying. Now you are saying we can't even discuss this until it is proven in a court of law. The question was about *evidence*. Evidence is what goes into making the ruling, it isn't the ruling itself. It is patently absurd to suggest that the words of police officer aren't evidence and patently absurd to suggest that we can't discuss what happened until the resutl is proven in court. Jeez, imagine if someone would have said that about the Zimerman or Wilson cases! Indeed, imagine telling the BLM protesters that they can't discuss those issues anymore because those cases are closed and their side lost!

Statguy, I asked you nicely before, now I'm telling you as a moderator: You've gone way off the reservation here. Please take a step back and reel-yourself in. Rational discussion of these issues is not possible under the posture you've taken.
 
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  • #222
Krylov said:
Both, and everything in between. Syrian refugees are just like ordinary people.
[Again, with the caveat that we're not just talking about Syrians here.]
We're not far apart, but I still want to point out that while most of the middle-eastern refugees are "just like ordinary people", we wouldn't be having this discussion if the cross sections were "just like" other groups. The percentage of extremists entering the West is small, but it is non-zero and that is a problem: The refugees present a useful/convenient cover for the entry of extremists.
 
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  • #223
jack476 said:
No, that is a guy saying something.
It is disingenuous to say it was "a guy": it was a police officer and statements - eyewitness testimony - are evidence. Jeez, this is ridiculous! Yes, preliminary. Yes, unconfirmed. But *evidence* nonetheless. It is information on which we should be able to base a discussion. Ferguson, Missouri was looted and burned over less, that turned out to be wrong.
 
  • #224
jack476 said:
I think that it's a bit intellectually dishonest to imply that someone is.
I agree. So is selectively applying that standard, that it is dishonest to suggest someone thinks what they did not say, by way of a question of other device. Read what I replied to.
 
  • #225
jack476 said:
Yes, yes, they are just allegations. http://www.dn.se/nyheter/sverige/qu...ns-handling-of-events-in-the-kungstradgarden/

The context of the quote by Agren was that they did not wish to potentially provoke violence against immigrants. The Sweden Democrats are a fringe right-wing party that originated with the Swedish Neo-Nazi movement, the majority of the Swedish government refuses to cooperate with them. Not wanting to encourage them is thoroughly justifiable, since the investigation would not be able to complete if it became politicized.
Don't you see how your last sentence in the above quote is a contradiction in terms? The very act of "not wanting to encourage them" by itself politicized the investigation!

The Sweden Democrats are not prohibited by law, they do not form a criminal organization. Therefore, it is not up to the Swedish police to make such decisions. This is by and large a cover up, admitted by a policeman in charge, that ultimately harms anyone directly or indirectly involved, except perhaps the perpetrators.
 
  • #226
russ_watters said:
[Again, with the caveat that we're not just talking about Syrians here.]
We're not far apart, but I still want to point out that while most of the middle-eastern refugees are "just like ordinary people", we wouldn't be having this discussion if the cross sections were "just like" other groups. The percentage of extremists entering the West is small, but it is non-zero and that is a problem: The refugees present a useful/convenient cover for the entry of extremists.
I agree with you.

And unfortunately the cover provided by refugees is not only useful for extremists, but also for all kinds of other hoodlums from different nations that are not "motivated" by any ideology. In my original reply to @StatGuy2000 I wanted to make clear that I am very well aware of the diverse character of the population entering the EU. It is exactly to do justice to this diversity that the EU needs proper control of its outer borders.
 
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  • #227
Krylov said:
Don't you see how your last sentence in the above quote is a contradiction in terms? The very act of "not wanting to encourage them" by itself politicized the investigation!

It is not a contradiction. Police officers have good reason to want to keep media attention away from ongoing investigations. If an active political party were to try to use the incident to propagandize, which would be very likely given that the Sweden Democrats' party-line is entirely focused on an anti-immigration platform, then the backlash could cause a media frenzy.

The Sweden Democrats are not prohibited by law, they do not form a criminal organization. Therefore, it is not up to the Swedish police to make such decisions. This is by and large a cover up, admitted by a policeman in charge, that ultimately harms anyone directly or indirectly involved, except perhaps the perpetrators.
[/quote]

Major news networks are legal organizations too, that doesn't mean that police are obligated to ignore their likely behavior in the decision to make information public. My understanding is that police departments are obligated by law to not comment in detail on ongoing investigations, especially when they involve minors. The fact that some things are prudent to not share does not mean that there is a conspiracy afoot.

russ_watters said:
It is disingenuous to say it was "a guy": it was a police officer and statements - eyewitness testimony - are evidence. Jeez, this is ridiculous! Yes, preliminary. Yes, unconfirmed. But *evidence* nonetheless. It is information on which we should be able to base a discussion.

Sure, in that case I guess. I thought you were going somewhere else with it.
 
  • #228
jack476 said:
It is not a contradiction. Police officers have good reason to want to keep media attention away from ongoing investigations.
The issue is not the details of the investigation, but the simple admission that crimes have been reported, and no the police (here anyway) do not enjoy the discretion as to whether or not to hide public crime reports because of their political sensibilities.
 
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  • #229
jack476 said:
It is not a contradiction. Police officers have good reason to want to keep media attention away from ongoing investigations. If an active political party were to try to use the incident to propagandize, which would be very likely given that the Sweden Democrats' party-line is entirely focused on an anti-immigration platform, then the backlash could cause a media frenzy.

Major news networks are legal organizations too, that doesn't mean that police are obligated to ignore their likely behavior in the decision to make information public. My understanding is that police departments are obligated by law to not comment in detail on ongoing investigations, especially when they involve minors. The fact that some things are prudent to not share does not mean that there is a conspiracy afoot.
There are at least two layers to this. First is the at face value idea that in a society that values free exchange of information and government transparency, withholding information on police activity is typically anathema. But laws do vary widely on the specifics. A random example of some of the details of types of records and what is released and why:
http://multimedia.journalism.berkeley.edu/tutorials/police-records/

So (next layer) the witholding of the information on something like this is a fairly unusual thing and requires a good reason/explanation. One example would be that if the police are closing in on a suspect, they don't want to tip him off to the details of the investigation. On the other hand, releasing details can both serve the public safety interest and aid in the investigation by prompting witnesses to come forward. So in this case, based on what you are suggesting, the police/government used their political beliefs to decide against addressing the known/extant public safety problem in order to not provide fodder for a political debate. That's really bad. At least if they were weighing the risk of backlash against the immigrants there would a safety vs safety consideration, but a safety vs politics decision is 1984/J Edgar Hoover (Rahm Emanual?) type manipulation/corruption.
 
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  • #230
russ_watters said:
There are at least two layers to this. First is the at face value idea that in a society that values free exchange of information and government transparency, withholding information on police activity is typically anathema. But laws do vary widely on the specifics. A random example of some of the details of types of records and what is released and why:
http://multimedia.journalism.berkeley.edu/tutorials/police-records/

So (next layer) the witholding of the information on something like this is a fairly unusual thing and requires a good reason/explanation. One example would be that if the police are closing in on a suspect, they don't want to tip him off to the details of the investigation. On the other hand, releasing details can both serve the public safety interest and aid in the investigation by prompting witnesses to come forward. So in this case, based on what you are suggesting, the police/government used their political beliefs to decide against addressing the known/extant public safety problem in order to not provide fodder for a political debate. That's really bad. At least if they were weighing the risk of backlash against the immigrants there would a safety vs safety consideration, but a safety vs politics decision is 1984/J Edgar Hoover (Rahm Emanual?) type manipulation/corruption.

From your source:

...documents like arrest reports or crime/incident reports kept at police departments are not presumed to be open to the public as court records are.

Thus almost no police investigative records are posted online.

So it is incorrect to claim that the public necessarily has a right to that information.

And:

There also are general exemptions that police can cite, such as that the release of information would endanger someone’s life or undermine an investigation, to decline to provide copies of arrest or crime/incident reports.

As a result, police departments vary widely in how they respond to reporters’ requests for arrest or crime reports. Some will routinely provide the reports but with sensitive information edited out. Some will provide most reports but withhold those that concern sensitive pending cases. Some will decline to release any police reports.

Emphasis mine.

They do indeed have the right to use discretion about what they make available. I would certainly call an incident of a gang of people who were likely immigrants sexually abusing a large number of teenage girls in a political climate that is ready to explode over the immigration issue "sensitive", as I would consider any sexual assault involving children or teenagers.

Just look at what's been happening:

Anti-immigration protest escalates to police using water cannons and pepper spray: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ew-Years-Eve-cases-rise-to-more-than-500.html

Violence against immigrants has spiked: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ew-Years-Eve-cases-rise-to-more-than-500.html

Surge in militia movements, fears of civil unrest: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/14/w...divisions-in-europes-migrant-crisis.html?_r=0

Taking all of that into consideration, you can see why one would be inclined to be very careful about what information you make public because of the risk of making things worse.
 
  • #231
Sensitivity to possible incitement of violence against a group is one side of the concern for public release. Another side is the possibility that the authorities decide, in secret, to bury the incidents and take little or no action, encouraging more crime, as has happened in recent years in a large, infamous and reprehensible case.
 
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  • #232
jack476 said:
Taking all of that into consideration, you can see why one would be inclined to be very careful about what information you make public because of the risk of making things worse.

How would you like doing it the other way around? Since there is a lot of hatred of the west in certain groups you should stop reporting about the anti-immigrant incidents, because you need to be very careful not to incite any violence against westerners.
 
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  • #233
chingel said:
How would you like doing it the other way around? Since there is a lot of hatred of the west in certain groups you should stop reporting about the anti-immigrant incidents, because you need to be very careful not to incite any violence against westerners.

If people from Germany and Sweden start being violently attacked because they happen to be from the same country as anti-immigration extremists, then yes, I would say that there is cause for caution. But that's not exactly something that's at risk of happening right now.

All I'm saying is, let's try to understand that police have a difficult decision to make when it comes to incidents like this and that human error is much more common than organized conspiracies.
 
  • #234
jack476 said:
human error is much more common than organized conspiracies.
Human error? You mean the possibility that somehow the majority of the assault reports by the women in Cologne were wrong? And horrid conspiracies on mass assaults, involving city government and its police force allowing victimization of citizens for years, are no longer unheard of.
 
  • #235
Sophia said:
Thats right, things are changing now.
I think that 90% of Europeans are not racist. In my opinion, the problem is, that each attempt to discuss problems associated with migration is immediately banned as "racist".

You yourself were doing that, in this very thread. :D
Sophia said:
Slovakia is accepting only Christian immigrant families. We refuse obligatory quotes.

Of course, I don't like the idea of immigrants flooding Europe, but at the same time I am ashamed of my country discriminating against people based on their religion.

This really resembles Nazi Germany or socialism.
 
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