No, this was not the question. The proposal by Nikkkom was whether or not to "not allow immigration of adherents of the view that "those who leave Islam should be killed"? " Why change it to your generalized strawman? The US naturalization Oath of Allegiance suggests a starting point:Sophia said:But the question is, do all Muslims believe that?
...I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen...
I disagree.mheslep said:No, this was not the question. The proposal by Nikkkom was whether or not to "not allow immigration of adherents of the view that "those who leave Islam should be killed"? "
nikkkom said:Adherents of the view that "Jews weren't killed in the millions by Nazis" get jailed in many European countries.
Why would it be a horrible, completely unacceptable thing to not allow immigration of adherents of the view that "those who leave Islam should be killed"? Not jailed. Not fined. Merely not allowed to enter the country. Immigration is not a right, it is a privilege.
Sophia said:But the question is, do all Muslims believe that?
But if people pass security check, why should they be denied help just because of their religion?
A quarter of a million migrants/refugees is an enormous problem, to say the least.In 2015 so far, 751,873 migrants — mostly from Syria but also Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan and other war-torn countries — have made their way through Turkey to Greece by sea, often crammed into unstable inflatable dinghies. By the time Bronstein arrived in late October, winter weather was already setting in, making the short boat ride more dangerous and, in some cases, deadly.
The scale of the attacks on women at the city's central railway station has shocked Germany. About 1,000 drunk and aggressive young men were involved.
City police chief Wolfgang Albers called it "a completely new dimension of crime". The men were of Arab or North African appearance, he said.
There is no room for PC in situations like that.Authorities and media were accused of a cover-up linked to initial indications that those allegedly responsible for the attacks, which also included numerous robberies, were of Arab and north African origin, according to the police.
HossamCFD said:Cologne suffers gang sexual assaults on women on new year's eve
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35231046
However, there was no official confirmation that asylum seekers had been involved in the violence. Commentators in Germany were quick to urge people not to jump to conclusions.
Absolutely despicable...Sickening
The Guardian reports that
There is no room for PC in situations like that.
Critics of Merkel’s open-door policy on refugees were quick to blame it for the attacks, despite the police’s insistence that the alleged perpetrators were not new arrivals.
jack476 said:That's worrying, but something about it just seems a little off, for lack of a better word. Perhaps that's why the BBC article included this disclaimer:
Caution seems to be the keyword.A policeman told the city's Express news website that he had detained eight suspects. "They were all asylum seekers, carrying copies of their residence certificates," he said.
This event as described does not warrant the typical "rape investigation", which would be appropriate for an isolated or serial event. A mob of a 1000 young men is described, and many dozens of women were assaulted on one night. Other issues are involved and describing them as tangential at the outset is misleading. Rotherham is an example of what happens under such pretense.jack476 said:...
Please, let's try to not lose our heads over this. Rape investigations are difficult enough, for the police and especially for the victims, without everyone trying to make the incidents into a soapbox for issues that are at most tangential to the matter.
For women in Cologne.HossamCFD said:Caution seems to be the keyword.
mheslep said:This event as described does not warrant the typical "rape investigation", which would be appropriate for an isolated or serial event. A mob of a 1000 young men is described, and many dozens of women were assaulted on one night. Other issues are involved and describing them as tangential at the outset is misleading. Rotherham is an example of what happens under such pretense.
Everything report I've seen today stated the young men were either Arab or N. African.jack476 said:...especially given that it's not yet been made clear whether these were refugees.
That sexually assaulted some 90 women in Germany? Of course it is a new thing. This was not a window breaking riot. Why continue to mislable what has been reported?My point is that riots and mobs are not a new thing...
A theoretical concern. The assault on the 90 women is not theoretical.jack476 said:... really unfair to the majority of immigrants and refugees who are not criminals.
mheslep, you know that being "Arab" or "North African" includes groups from at least 25 countries, right? Including Turkey -- there is a large Turkish community in Germany, many of whom have been established there since the 1960s if I'm not mistaken, and certainly many Turks can be mistaken for being "Arab" or "North African" in appearance. You can't therefore conclude that somehow these young men are Syrian refugees (which you are clearly trying to link in your posts).mheslep said:Everything report I've seen today stated the young men were either Arab or N. African.
That sexually assaulted some 90 women in Germany? Of course it is a new thing. This was not a window breaking riot. Why continue to mislable what has been reported?
So far, that's your association in this thread, not mine. So far, the reports from German officials say the attackers were "North African or Arabic"StatGuy2000 said:You can't therefore conclude that somehow these young men are Syrian refugees (which you are clearly trying to link in your posts).
StatGuy2000 said:Sexually assaulting 90 women is new because we're hearing about it now,...
German Justice Minister Heiko Maas said at the news conference. "This has never happened before, at least not in these dimensions."
City police chief Wolfgang Albers called it "a completely new dimension of crime". The men were of Arab or North African appearance, he said.
Mr Jaeger also warned that anti-immigrant groups were trying to use the attacks to stir up hatred against refugees.
"What happens on the right-wing platforms and in chatrooms is at least as awful as the acts of those assaulting the women," he said.
Big caveat: until the perpetrators are caught, we can't be sure who they are.StatGuy2000 said:mheslep, you know that being "Arab" or "North African" includes groups from at least 25 countries, right? Including Turkey -- there is a large Turkish community in Germany, many of whom have been established there since the 1960s if I'm not mistaken, and certainly many Turks can be mistaken for being "Arab" or "North African" in appearance. You can't therefore conclude that somehow these young men are Syrian refugees (which you are clearly trying to link in your posts).
Is this regarding the Cologne incident or just in general? Most reports of the Cologne attack described the men as drunk, hardly a sign of observant muslims, let alone extremists.russ_watters said:The link I see is not to Syria specifically, it is to the general latent Islamic extremism that - borne of ISIS "sympathy" - is currently a growing problem in the West.
mheslep said:Everything report I've seen today stated the young men were either Arab or N. African.
That sexually assaulted some 90 women in Germany? Of course it is a new thing. This was not a window breaking riot. Why continue to mislable what has been reported?
mheslep said:A theoretical concern. The assault on the 90 women is not theoretical.
That may be leading us off topic, but it is worth noting that Europe only cast-off nationalism/xenophobia as standard policy/philosophy at the end of WWII. Cultures do not necessarily change that fast and pockets of such strife still often simmer to the surface. The high density of diverse populations with arbitrary borders drawn around them has been a problem for thousands of years.Sophia said:I used to be quite tolerant but now I'm really starting to be concerned.
...
I don't want to be openly racist so that I don't get banned but we have had one minority in our country for more than 500 years. We did not colonise them, they came voluntarily.
They still haven't assimilated..
Both, because my fear is that gang sexual assaults could become a new fad. You seemed to indicate it is somewhat common in Muslim countries, and that increases my fear that it may be exported to the West.HossamCFD said:Is this regarding the Cologne incident or just in general?
My understanding is the Boston bomber was a party animal too: extremist is not necessarily equivalent to strict fundamentalist.Most reports of the Cologne attack described the men as drunk, hardly a sign of observant muslims, let alone extremists.
russ_watters said:In my view, part of the current problem is that Europe thought (or didn't think about?) that by erasing the borders, such issues would go away. But governments can't erase the borders people draw around themselves.
Oh, I agree, my point was just that the government can't erase the borders and just assume everything will be fine. It applies in both situations:jack476 said:Not by force, no, because people in their natural state fear the unknown and unfamiliar. But the best and only way to prevent and eliminate prejudice and bigotry is to expose people to the unknown and unfamiliar to teach them that it is not to be feared.
In an increasingly globalized world you can't just expect that there's never going to be occurrences where large numbers of people from very different backgrounds are going to have to interact with each other. Failure to properly inoculate people against the knee-jerk tendency to become anxious in the presence of unfamiliar people is how we end up unprepared to deal with things like the refugee crisis.
A divine woman made of chocolate... That might convert even me.Sophia said:pray to the Chocolate Goddess
I see what you mean. And it does seem that disentangling what's religious from what's cultural is a bit subjective. I might just be arguing semantics but IMO just because something is common in Muslim communities (and I'm not actually sure that is the case, I don't know if it's common in non-Arabic Muslim communities) is not enough to label it "Islamic Extremism". I think the action itself has to be done to further the cause of Islam in the mind of the perpetrator, which is the case for the Boston bomber but not the Cologne attacks.russ_watters said:Both, because my fear is that gang sexual assaults could become a new fad. You seemed to indicate it is somewhat common in Muslim countries, and that increases my fear that it may be exported to the West.
My understanding is the Boston bomber was a party animal too: extremist is not necessarily equivalent to strict fundamentalist.
russ_watters said:Big caveat: until the perpetrators are caught, we can't be sure who they are.
The link I see is not to Syria specifically, it is to the general latent Islamic extremism that - borne of ISIS "sympathy" - is currently a growing problem in the West. The fear triggered in me is that this will become a new fad, similar to the random knifings.
fresh_42 said:Just for the record. There have been similar incidents in Hamburg, too. And the number of reported offenses in Cologne is now above 120.
To be pc doesn't solve the problem.
Exactly what the reports have said, a mass sexual assault, the like of which is "unheard of" in Germany, by a crowd of up to 1000 Arabic or N. African young men. At this point, I'm uninterested in whether they arrived last week or ten years ago.jack476 said:So what exactly are you labeling it as, ...
You said this is common and tied to Islamic events ("have been happening in Egypt for a long time, pretty much every Eid or other major holidays"). I don't want to hairsplit either and I don't think there is any need to: the connection with islam is there, regardless of what its particular nature/motive is.HossamCFD said:I might just be arguing semantics but IMO just because something is common in Muslim communities (and I'm not actually sure that is the case, I don't know if it's common in non-Arabic Muslim communities) is not enough to label it "Islamic Extremism". I think the action itself has to be done to further the cause of Islam in the mind of the perpetrator...
With the same caveat as before (don't know for sure until they are caught), like the above, I'm not seeing a hair to be split there: whatever the specific nature of the connection is, it is....which is the case for the Boston bomber but not the Cologne attacks.
Oh, just to clarify, the Eid connection is just that it's a public holiday, people go out and crowds are easier to assemble. It's the same reason why the attacks in Cologne and Hamburg happened on new year's.russ_watters said:You said this is common and tied to Islamic events
Speculation, perhaps, but not idle speculation. We've been given the connection. It may turn out to be inaccurate, we have it. It's there. They are not "distinct issues" per the information we have available.StatGuy2000 said:I agree with you that until a proper investigation is conducted and the perpetrators are caught, we are only engaging in speculation as to who they are.
However, it is important that we not conflate Islamic extremism (more specifically with sympathy for ISIS or similar jihadist groups) and gang attacks in Cologne (of whom we only have a vague idea as to the identity of these people). These are two distinct issues.
Ok...I don't disagree, so I don't need you to provide such links (someone else may ask).From what I have read or heard from scholars who have studied both terrorism and about the role of religion in society more generally, Islamic extremism of the type exhibited by either ISIS/al Qaeda or their sympathizers involve violent conduct to further specific political aims, under the cover of religion (I have even read that many members of ISIS specifically or those who seek to join ISIS were often not even particularly religious to begin with). I can provide specific links from these scholars once I find them.
"Not unheard of", sure, in broad strokes, but also not common - it's pretty rare and I've never heard of an incident that large. In either case, that's all a reasonable possibility. I'm not real clear what your point is though: are you simply claiming it may not be terrorism? I agree, it might not be. Indeed, you're the first to use the word. Not every crime done in the name of islamic extremism is necessarily terrorism.From what I understand of the attacks in Cologne, these events seem to be more similar to actions carried out by criminal gangs (it is not unheard of for street gangs to carry out harassment or attacks on mass on women, whether in the US or in other countries around the world). I am aware that in France, for example, those of Arab or North African descent often suffer widespread discrimination in areas like employment, housing and policing, not unlike what we witness among African Americans in the US, or among aboriginal peoples in Canada. The social consequences of such social problems are therefore apparent -- higher crime rates, higher incarceration rates, prevalence of street gangs, drug problems, etc. The situation may be similar in Germany as well.