What Are the Rules for Determining the Determinant of a 4x4 Matrix?

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    Determinant Matrix
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the methods for calculating the determinant of a 4x4 matrix, including specific techniques such as Jacobi's Rule and elementary row operations (EROs). Participants explore various approaches and share their calculations while addressing potential errors in the process.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents a matrix and attempts to calculate its determinant using row operations, resulting in a modified matrix.
  • Another participant suggests using Jacobi's Rule to compute the determinant and provides a detailed breakdown of the expansion process.
  • There are discrepancies noted between the matrices produced by different participants after applying row operations, indicating potential calculation errors.
  • A participant expresses gratitude for feedback and inquires about using a triangular method for determinant calculation.
  • Discussion includes clarification on how EROs affect the determinant, specifically regarding row switching and multiplication by constants.
  • Participants emphasize the importance of tracking changes to the determinant during the application of EROs.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the correct determinant value due to differing calculations and methods. Multiple competing views on the approach to calculating the determinant remain evident.

Contextual Notes

Participants express uncertainty about their calculations and the effects of specific row operations on the determinant. There are unresolved details regarding the application of Jacobi's Rule and the triangular method.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be useful for students or individuals interested in linear algebra, particularly those seeking to understand determinant calculations for larger matrices and the implications of different mathematical techniques.

Petrus
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Hello MHB,
calculate determinant of:
$$
\left| {\begin{array}{cc} 2 & -2 & -3 & 8 \\ 1 & -1 & 2 & -1 \\ -3 & 4 & 1 & -1 \\ -2 & 6 & -4 & 19 \end{array} } \right|$$
so I multiplication -2 row 2 and add it to row 1, multiplication 3 to row 2 and add it to row 3, multiplicate 2 to row 2 and add it to row 4 and get
$$
\left| {\begin{array}{cc} 0 & 0 & -5 & -10 \\ 1 & -1 & 2 & -1 \\ 0 & 1 & 7 & -4 \\ 0 & 4 & 0 & 17 \end{array} } \right|$$ and develops in columne 1 and use sarrus rule but I get wrong.

Regards,
$$|\rangle$$
 
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There are several methods to do this. You can just use Jacobi's Rule as is to obtain
\begin{align*}\left| \begin{array}{cccc} 2 & -2 & -3 & 8 \\ 1 & -1 & 2 & -1 \\ -3 & 4 & 1 & -1 \\ -2 & 6 & -4 & 19 \end{array} \right|
=&(+1)(2)\left| \begin{array}{ccc}-1 & 2 & -1 \\ 4 & 1 & -1 \\ 6 & -4 & 19 \end{array} \right|
+(-1)(-2)\left| \begin{array}{ccc} 1 & 2 & -1 \\ -3 & 1 & -1 \\ -2 & -4 & 19 \end{array} \right|\\
+&(+1)(-3)\left| \begin{array}{ccc} 1 & -1 & -1 \\ -3 & 4 & -1 \\ -2 & 6 & 19 \end{array} \right|
+(-1)(8)\left| \begin{array}{ccc} 1 & -1 & 2 \\ -3 & 4 & 1 \\ -2 & 6 & -4 \end{array} \right|,
\end{align*}
and keep drilling down in each matrix.
Alternatively, you can do ERO's on the matrix, keeping track of how each ERO changes the determinant.

You can certainly do the ERO's you did. I get
$$\left| \begin{array}{cccc} 2 & -2 & -3 & 8 \\ 1 & -1 & 2 & -1 \\ -3 & 4 & 1 & -1 \\ -2 & 6 & -4 & 19 \end{array} \right| \to
\left| \begin{array}{cccc} 0 & 0 & -7 & 10 \\ 1 & -1 & 2 & -1 \\ 0 & 1 & 7 & -4 \\ 0 & 4 & 0 & 17 \end{array} \right|.$$
If I compare to yours, which is
$$\left| {\begin{array}{cc} 0 & 0 & -5 & -10 \\ 1 & -1 & 2 & -1 \\ 0 & 1 & 7 & -4 \\ 0 & 4 & 0 & 17 \end{array} } \right|,$$
I see that there are some differences. Don't forget, when you actually do the determinant, that the $-1$ in the $2,1$ position has a minus sign associated with it in the Jacobi expansion.
 
Ackbach said:
There are several methods to do this. You can just use Jacobi's Rule as is to obtain
\begin{align*}\left| \begin{array}{cccc} 2 & -2 & -3 & 8 \\ 1 & -1 & 2 & -1 \\ -3 & 4 & 1 & -1 \\ -2 & 6 & -4 & 19 \end{array} \right|
=&(+1)(2)\left| \begin{array}{ccc}-1 & 2 & -1 \\ 4 & 1 & -1 \\ 6 & -4 & 19 \end{array} \right|
+(-1)(-2)\left| \begin{array}{ccc} 1 & 2 & -1 \\ -3 & 1 & -1 \\ -2 & -4 & 19 \end{array} \right|\\
+&(+1)(-3)\left| \begin{array}{ccc} 1 & -1 & -1 \\ -3 & 4 & -1 \\ -2 & 6 & 19 \end{array} \right|
+(-1)(8)\left| \begin{array}{ccc} 1 & -1 & 2 \\ -3 & 4 & 1 \\ -2 & 6 & -4 \end{array} \right|,
\end{align*}
and keep drilling down in each matrix.
Alternatively, you can do ERO's on the matrix, keeping track of how each ERO changes the determinant.

You can certainly do the ERO's you did. I get
$$\left| \begin{array}{cccc} 2 & -2 & -3 & 8 \\ 1 & -1 & 2 & -1 \\ -3 & 4 & 1 & -1 \\ -2 & 6 & -4 & 19 \end{array} \right| \to
\left| \begin{array}{cccc} 0 & 0 & -7 & 10 \\ 1 & -1 & 2 & -1 \\ 0 & 1 & 7 & -4 \\ 0 & 4 & 0 & 17 \end{array} \right|.$$
If I compare to yours, which is
$$\left| {\begin{array}{cc} 0 & 0 & -5 & -10 \\ 1 & -1 & 2 & -1 \\ 0 & 1 & 7 & -4 \\ 0 & 4 & 0 & 17 \end{array} } \right|,$$
I see that there are some differences. Don't forget, when you actually do the determinant, that the $-1$ in the $2,1$ position has a minus sign associated with it in the Jacobi expansion.
Hello Ackbach,
I am really grateful for the fast responed!:) Thanks a lot! I did not see I start to misscalculate ...:( I have read about a triangle way, can I also use it?

Regards
$$|\rangle$$
 
Petrus said:
Hello Ackbach,
I am really grateful for the fast responed!:) Thanks a lot! I did not see I start to misscalculate ...:( I have read about a triangle way, can I also use it?

Regards
$$|\rangle$$

If you make your matrix upper triangular, the determinant of the resulting matrix is the product of the entries on the main diagonal. BUT, you still have to keep track of how your ERO's affect the determinant.
 
Ackbach said:
BUT, you still have to keep track of how your ERO's affect the determinant.
Hello Ackbach,
What did you mean with that? If you mean with it will be an multiplicate -1 to the determinant because of well in Swedish my book called it "schedule"?
+ - + -
- + - +
+ - + -
- + - +
Regards,
$$|\rangle$$
 
No, I mean this:

The ERO that takes a multiple of one row, adds it to another row, and stores it in that row, does not change the determinant.

The ERO that switches two rows multiplies the determinant by $-1$.

The ERO that multiplies a row by a nonzero number $m$ also multiplies the determinant by $m$.
 
Ackbach said:
No, I mean this:

The ERO that takes a multiple of one row, adds it to another row, and stores it in that row, does not change the determinant.

The ERO that switches two rows multiplies the determinant by $-1$.

The ERO that multiplies a row by a nonzero number $m$ also multiplies the determinant by $m$.
Thanks again Ackbach!

Regards
$$|\rangle$$
 

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