What are the values of the integral and derivative for the Dirichlet function?

  • Context: Graduate 
  • Thread starter Thread starter Karlisbad
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Derivative Function
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the Dirichlet function, specifically its integral and derivative values. Participants explore the properties of the function, including its integrability and differentiability, as well as related functions that modify its definition.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant defines the Dirichlet function, stating it equals 1 for integers or rationals and 0 otherwise, and questions the values of its integral and derivative.
  • Another participant asserts that the Dirichlet function is neither Riemann integrable nor differentiable, claiming it is Lebesgue integrable with an integral value of zero.
  • A participant introduces a modified function, g(x), which combines the Dirichlet function with another function that is 1 for rationals and 0 otherwise, raising questions about its derivative.
  • It is noted that g(x) equals the Dirichlet function for non-integer x, leading to the conclusion that g'(x) equals f'(x) for non-integer x, while g is not differentiable at integer points due to discontinuity.
  • One participant highlights that the Dirichlet function is well-known and has a specific name associated with it.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the integrability and differentiability of the Dirichlet function, with some asserting it is Lebesgue integrable and others emphasizing its lack of Riemann integrability and differentiability. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the derivative values.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations regarding the definitions of integrability and differentiability being discussed, as well as the assumptions underlying the properties of the Dirichlet function and its modifications.

Karlisbad
Messages
127
Reaction score
0
let be the function f(x) so

f(x)=1 for every integer or rational.

f(x)=0 otherwise..

my questions are, what's the value of [tex]\int_{a}^{b}f(x)dx[/tex] and f'(x) (i think the second value is 0 for every x, but I'm not sure) :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
 
Physics news on Phys.org
The function is neither Riemann integrable, nor differentiable. It is not even continuous os has no chance of being differentiable. It is Lebesgue integrable and the integral is identically zero.
 
Oh..sorry, i saw a similar example, they defined the function:

g(x)= f(x)+a(x) iff x is an integer

g(x)=f(x) otherwise.

where a(x) is the function (i don't know its name) that is 1 iff x is a rational and 0 otherwise. :shy: :shy: then you had the question of defining g'(x)
 
Karlisbad said:
Oh..sorry, i saw a similar example, they defined the function:

g(x)= f(x)+a(x) iff x is an integer

g(x)=f(x) otherwise.

where a(x) is the function (i don't know its name) that is 1 iff x is a rational and 0 otherwise. :shy: :shy: then you had the question of defining g'(x)
Obviously, g(x)= f(x) for all non-integer x so g'(x)= f'(x) for non-integer x. Since g is not continuous at integer x, g is not differentiable there.
 
As a completely unnecessary addition to the previous posts, the function you started with is famous enough to have gained its own name: it is called the Dirichlet function.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
3K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 31 ·
2
Replies
31
Views
5K
  • · Replies 17 ·
Replies
17
Views
4K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
3K
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
3K