What assumptions underly the Lorentz transformation?

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the assumptions underlying the Lorentz transformation, particularly in the context of relativistic velocity addition. Participants explore the foundational principles of special relativity and the implications of various assumptions on the formulation of the Lorentz transformation.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that the formula for relativistic velocity addition arises from the Lorentz transformation and the postulates of special relativity, specifically the invariance of the speed of light.
  • Others emphasize the importance of isotropy and homogeneity of spacetime as foundational assumptions leading to either the Galilean or Lorentz transformations.
  • There is a call for clarification on the specific assumptions of special relativity, with requests for formal definitions or equations.
  • One participant suggests that an absolute velocity assumption might underlie the formulation, while others challenge this notion, arguing that it contradicts the principles of relativity.
  • Some participants provide derivations and mathematical formulations related to the transformations, indicating a technical exploration of the topic.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the assumptions underlying the Lorentz transformation. While some agree on the role of special relativity's postulates, others dispute the notion of an absolute velocity assumption, leading to an ongoing debate.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights the complexity of defining foundational assumptions in special relativity, with various interpretations and mathematical formulations presented without resolution.

  • #121
vanhees71 said:
Sure, but of course the Newtonian limit (for a mechanical situation) can be valid only in an inertial frame, where the bodies move with velocities much smaller than the speed of light, i.e., you'll get a good approximation to the relativistic dynamics only in such reference frames.

How do you come to that conclusion? There are both types of currents in nature: A "convection current", i.e., the current due to a single moving charge is of course timelike. In continuum-mechanical notation it's given by $$j^{\mu}=q n c u^{\mu},$$
where ##q## is the charge of the particles making up the fluid, ##n## the particle density as measured in the rest frame of the fluid cell (a scalar), and ##u^{\mu}## the normalized four-velocity (with ##u_{\mu} u^{\mu}=1##, using the (1,-1,-1,-1) signature).

Then there are conduction-current densities in wires, which are space-like. The charge density is close to 0 since there is the positive ion lattice in addition to the negative conduction electrons making up the current.

It's Eq. (2.23) on p. 224, and in my edition of Landau-Lifshitz's vol. 2 it's in Paragraph 24. That's indeed an approximation of the transformation law derived as an expansion in powers of ##1/c##, but indeed this doesn't lead to a transformation group and in this sense is not a consistent Galilean theory. Of course the paper also demonstrates that there is indeed no Galilean electrodynamics which is consistent with the phenomenology anyway.

Well, the question, whether there is a consistent Galilean electrodynamics is of some academic interest, but as the paper shows, it fails to describe the electromagnetic phenomenology right although of course there are good approximations to certain "non-relativistic" situations, e.g., the quasistationary approximations used to derive AC circuit theory.
I've opened another thread here.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: vanhees71

Similar threads

  • · Replies 33 ·
2
Replies
33
Views
3K
Replies
3
Views
1K
  • · Replies 54 ·
2
Replies
54
Views
4K
  • · Replies 0 ·
Replies
0
Views
1K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K
  • · Replies 10 ·
Replies
10
Views
1K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
3K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K