What came first, matter or energy?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the relationship between matter and energy, particularly in the context of cosmology and physics. Participants explore whether matter or energy came first, referencing concepts from general relativity, inflationary cosmology, and particle physics.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants suggest that matter and energy are interchangeable, with matter being convertible to energy and vice versa.
  • Others argue that energy is a property of matter and fields, and that there is no such thing as "pure energy."
  • A participant mentions that the earliest universe was a plasma of matter, antimatter, and radiation, questioning if energy originated from matter.
  • Some participants discuss the concept of fields, noting that fields are fundamental entities in physics and not made of anything else.
  • There is a mention of inflationary cosmology, where the universe may have initially been composed entirely of energy, which later decayed into matter.
  • Questions arise about the nature of fields and whether they can be considered axiomatic in physics, with some participants emphasizing that physics focuses on empirical models rather than absolute truths.
  • Participants express confusion about the conversion of energy to matter in particle accelerators like the LHC, discussing how kinetic energy can result in the creation of particles.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on whether matter or energy came first, with multiple competing views presented. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the definitions and implications of matter and energy.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations in the discussion regarding the definitions of matter and energy, the nature of fields, and the assumptions underlying various cosmological models. Participants express uncertainty about the foundational aspects of these concepts.

  • #31
A red apple is a type of red object.
"Red" is a properly of a red apple.

Ignore that there are apples of different color, for this analogy apples are always red.
 
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  • #32
Oh wow...I feel so stupid. Thanks a lot for the clarification !
 
  • #33
mfb said:
A red apple is a type of red object.
"Red" is a properly of a red apple.

But "red" and "red object" are different things, so I don't get this analogy... "Red" is a property, but "red object" is not.
 
  • #34
No analogy is perfect.
You can also say "Is a red object" is a property of a red apple, if you want to have the object in both sentences.
 
  • #35
Energy may be a property of matter, but it's a property of radiation, too! As the universe expanded, the energy density of radiation has decreased by (linear scale)^4, while the energy density of matter as decreased by (linear scale)^3, so in the early universe, the radiation energy density was much higher than the matter density. So you could say, in a way, radiation preceded matter. But you'd better know the details.

I think matter technically refers to massive things composed of fundamental fermions, like electrons and quarks, and the forces that hold them together. Radiation usually refers to light and also matter moving at relativistic speeds. (At relativistic speeds, most of the energy is in kinetic energy, whereas in ordinary matter, most energy is in rest mass.)
 
  • #36
Khashishi said:
(At relativistic speeds, most of the energy is in kinetic energy, whereas in ordinary matter, most energy is in rest mass.)
With most of the rest mass of the hadrons originating from binding energy however.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quark
 

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