What can be seen if taking a snap shot @ 4.21K? Superconductivity

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the behavior of superconductors during the transition from normal to superconducting states, particularly at the temperature of 4.21K. Participants explore the presence of Cooper pairs and free electrons during this transition, the nature of the transition itself, and the implications of time on the formation of Cooper pairs.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Exploratory

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions what can be observed at 4.21K, suggesting a mixture of Cooper pairs and free electrons might be present.
  • Another participant argues that while the transition is theoretically sharp, practical factors like sample purity and instrument resolution affect observations.
  • It is noted that even in a fully superconducting state, there are both paired and unpaired electrons, indicating that not all electrons condense into the supercurrent.
  • A participant seeks evidence for a "tiny period of time" required for Cooper pairs to form, implying a need for observable intermediate states during the transition.
  • Another participant challenges the relevance of time in the measurement process, suggesting that temperature can be varied independently of time.
  • There is a discussion about the analogy of phase transitions, comparing the superconducting transition to water turning into ice, emphasizing the potential for observable intermediate states.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature of the transition and the role of time in the formation of Cooper pairs. There is no consensus on whether intermediate states can be observed or if time is a relevant factor in this context.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights limitations in understanding the transition due to factors like sample purity and measurement techniques. The concept of time in relation to the transition remains unresolved.

paulzhen
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image012.gif


In the above picture it is clear that the transition from normal to superconducting states is not infinitesimally sharp, it drops from around 4.22K ~ end at 4.20K. I have two questions for this:

1) I wondering, what can be seen if taking a snap shot in the middle, say @ 4.21K? Would I see cooper pairs and free electrons mixed?

2) But as I know, cooper pairs would not "mix" with free electrons, because the exist of free electrons will disturb or say, break the condensed states of cooper pairs, it means either 100% cooper pairs or 100% free electrons in the conductor. Is my understanding right?

THANKS A LOT FOR HELPING!
 
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The transition, in principle, is "sharp" because this is similar to a phase transition. However, in practice, we don't see it because (i) the uniformity and purity of the sample (ii) the resolution of the instrument, etc.

But secondly, you need to realize that even in a completely superconducting state, there are both paired and unpaired electrons! In other words, there are electrons in the supercurrent, and there are normal electrons! Not all the electrons condense into the supercurrent.

Zz.
 
ZapperZ said:
The transition, in principle, is "sharp" because this is similar to a phase transition. However, in practice, we don't see it because (i) the uniformity and purity of the sample (ii) the resolution of the instrument, etc.

But secondly, you need to realize that even in a completely superconducting state, there are both paired and unpaired electrons! In other words, there are electrons in the supercurrent, and there are normal electrons! Not all the electrons condense into the supercurrent.

Zz.

Dear Zz,

So the "transition range" from 4.22k to 4.20k shown in this diagram is only due to the issues such as impurities or instrument? But I believe it still require "a tiny period of time" to complete forming cooper pairs, right?

I am looking for some "proofs" for the exist of this "tiny period of time", any advice for me? Thanks!
 
paulzhen said:
Dear Zz,

So the "transition range" from 4.22k to 4.20k shown in this diagram is only due to the issues such as impurities or instrument? But I believe it still require "a tiny period of time" to complete forming cooper pairs, right?

I am looking for some "proofs" for the exist of this "tiny period of time", any advice for me? Thanks!

I have no idea what you mean by "a tiny period of time". That measurement as nothing to do with "time". I can vary the temperature as fast and as slow as I want to. So what does time have anything to do with this?

Furthermore, it appears that you no longer care about your original question, which is the presence of both cooper paired electrons and normal state electrons, even in the superconducting state.

Zz.
 
ZapperZ said:
I have no idea what you mean by "a tiny period of time". That measurement as nothing to do with "time". I can vary the temperature as fast and as slow as I want to. So what does time have anything to do with this?

Furthermore, it appears that you no longer care about your original question, which is the presence of both cooper paired electrons and normal state electrons, even in the superconducting state.

Zz.

Dear Zz,

Sorry I have thought for a long time how to make myself clear, but I failed obviously.

I just want to keep my post short hence did not tell the background of why I asking this question, because I think you would not interested in. You have answered my original question in your first reply, I took it and not going to ask more regarding to that.

What I really care about is:
I reckon there would be some evidence can be "seen" in this phase transition. Just like water transforming to ice, you can see ice and water mix in the middle of transition, and this transition took time. So I asking myself is there possible to "see" or more practically speaking, find some "proofs" for this period of superconducting transition. Since this is a "phase transition", I cannot imagine how anything "transform" to other things without any "intermediate state".

I thought the graph above is an evidence for this "intermediate state", but I believe I was wrong, so I am asking for another advices, hopefully I have made myself a bit more clear now.
 
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