What can I do with a very low GPA?

[bluebottle]

Whoops didn't see that last post there.

One thing that I would suggest is to at least try to get a job (any job).

I'm currently job searching. :) And I'm getting involved in some volunteering right now. So I am trying to improve that part of my CV.

Let's ask this question. Suppose you had a perfect GPA, what would you do? OK. Why can't you do it? If you aren't applying for jobs because your GPA is awful, that's going to be more crippling than having an awful GPA.

To be honest, I don't know what specific jobs I would be applying for. I would go for the research labs, call them up, see what's available for physics bachelor's, and do the whole job-seeking dance.

If you're suggesting that I just try - throw myself out there and see what they say - well, yes I am going to do that. I am going to try with a few of the physics employers.

But I don't anticipate success. And the stats are on my side; most physics bachelor's don't get careers in physics. I'm mainly going for an engineering job, or a business or finance job, because I think that's far more likely. But with a bad CV overall, it looks like I'll need either a second degree or some time in community college.

 

[twofish-quant]

I have bad grades (at least, highly unimpressive ones), no provable abilities, no extracurriculars and no work experience.

Of the things on the list, the bad grades are probably the least of your problems.

And besides that, don't Americans prefer to hire Americans?

No they don't in the major technology centers. Work visas often force companies to look for US residents first, but that's why the NAFTA visa is useful.

So okay everybody. I think it's settled that I'm neither going to be employed nor in graduate school after I officially get my bachelor's.

Since you asked for harsh criticism...

I think the way that you are reacting to events is going to be a far, far worse handicap to your getting a job than your GPA. You haven't sent out any resumes, you haven't even *tried* to get a job, and already you've given up.

This isn't the type of personality employers like. Someone royally screws up. You end up the laughing stock of major newspapers and television news. If you react to that by just giving up, that's bad.

This is precisely why employers don't like people that have too many degrees.

I can't talk about community colleges because Canadian community colleges can be somewhat different than US community colleges. I can talk about finance and engineering, and I can tell you that getting a job as a dishwasher is going to look better on your resume than another undergraduate degree.

 

[twofish-quant]

To be honest, I don't know what specific jobs I would be applying for. I would go for the research labs, call them up, see what's available for physics bachelor's, and do the whole job-seeking dance.

The first thing is to stop by your careers office at your university. The second thing is to network with your peers to find out where they are looking for work.

But I don't anticipate success. And the stats are on my side; most physics bachelor's don't get careers in physics.

Redefine success. If you are employed doing anything. You win.

I'm mainly going for an engineering job, or a business or finance job, because I think that's far more likely. But with a bad CV overall, it looks like I'll need either a second degree or some time in community college.

A second undergraduate degree is going to make your CV worse unless it's something *wildly* different than physics. If Canadian community colleges are similar to US community colleges, then that's also bad.

 

[StatGuy2000]

The first thing is to stop by your careers office at your university. The second thing is to network with your peers to find out where they are looking for work.



Redefine success. If you are employed doing anything. You win.



A second undergraduate degree is going to make your CV worse unless it's something *wildly* different than physics. If Canadian community colleges are similar to US community colleges, then that's also bad.

twofish-quant, I often agree with you (specifically, I agree with your suggestion about networking with peers), but on the question of getting a second degree or diploma, I completely disagree, at least for those in Canada (the situation in the US may be different). First of all, nowhere do you have to list the fact that you pursued a second undergraduate degree on your resume (and employers in Canada will not ask how many degrees you have). So pursuing a 2nd undergraduate degree will not have a negative impact on employment.

Second of all, Canadian community colleges differ considerably from American community colleges in a number of respects. First of all, many community colleges in Canada do not offer the equivalent of the first 2 years of a general liberal arts & science degree in their course lists that American community colleges do; their primary goal is to provide diplomas in practical, technical areas (e.g. engineering technology/technicians, graphic design, automotive technologies, electricians, nursing, MRI technicians, etc.)

Furthermore, many community colleges offer post-undergraduate certificate/diploma programs (i.e. certification programs after you earn your 4-year undergraduate degree in university). For example, there is a 2-year post-undergraduate certificate clinical research associate (CRA) program, meant to train people to work as clinical research coordinators for health care organizations and pharmaceuticals.

 

[StatGuy2000]

And those are "rubber stamp" conditions. If you have a technical job offer, you satisfy them.

You get a job offer from a reasonably sized corporation and someone in HR fills out the paperwork. The thing that makes NAFTA work visas "easy" is that there isn't a quota. This means that companies will interview first and then worry about visa issues later.

You can't do that with H-1B's because there is a quota. So even if you are the perfect candidate, the employer may not be able to hire you. The other thing is that non-Canadian visas have a "worker displacement" condition. Essentially, you can't sponsor someone for an H-1B visa unless you can show that there are no local people who are qualified for the position, and this is hard to show, and perhaps impossible now since it isn't true. Finally, there are issues with interviewing. Canadian citizens can easily go to the US for an interview without a visa, whereas this is hard for people in other countries.

My point earlier was that for a Canadian to obtain a NAFTA work visa, he/she would already need to have a technical job offer from a firm with positions available in the US. Once the offer is available, then you are indeed correct -- the visa is a rubber-stamp (unlike the H-1B's, where there indeed is a quota).

You also have a point about the relative ease with which Canadian citizens can go to the US for an interview (having flown to NJ for an interview myself -- although given that I'm a dual American/Canadian citizen, the NAFTA visa is not applicable to me).

 

[DragonPetter]

My experience with previous HR and managers in my old job was that they tended to be star struck pretty easily. If my old boss got a resume on his desk with a second degree listed, he would have been really excited (which is humorous in retrospect), and the HR lady would not have any technical knowledge to make him skeptical. You might get away with not even including your GPA on your resume. The problem is that most employers value experience more than degree/GPA, and so finding your first job is often the most challenging one.

OP, you need to realize that there are lots of other people just like you, or even in worse situations. There are lots of mediocre students who got a job and stuck with it. Just like you are not the cream of the crop of your class, there are plenty of companies who are not the cream of the crop in their industry. Don't expect to get hired at a majorly successful and renowned technical company, although you should still apply to those places too. The mechanical engineering department at my old job had a boss who didn't even have a bachelors degree, and many managers are so out of touch with technical aspects that they care more about how you carry a conversation at lunch. You need to evaluate your skills and personality, and determine if you are competent at anything relevant in the jobs you are looking at. Competency is visible to anyone you work with, and you don't want to be the incompetent guy anywhere you end up at. At my previous job, I came across several incompetent workers who managed to be hired and keep their job.

On the other hand, you have not helped yourself much at all to counter the poor GPA. A 2-year technology degree would be really useful. One path you could take is electronics tech school and find an entry level job, and then go into a 2 year grad school program for medical physics to become a radiation physicist, where you can have a job as a consultant with medical equipment/software or work for a company that calibrates and repairs the machines. Those jobs actually pay a lot, and someone who had mediocre performance in a physics program probably could pull it off without much trouble.

The other thing that could be your big break is if you could find an internship. I'm surprised you didn't look for one last year when you knew your grades were shaky. You won't be paid well, but it gives you a great chance to prove yourself to your employer (and maybe boost your low confidence) and also you will have real work experience to put on your CV.

This may sound depressing, but within reason, take what you can get. You will get something, it just might not be your dream job, but it will be a stepping stone to something better.

 

[pumpkin0017]

A second undergraduate degree is going to make your CV worse unless it's something *wildly* different than physics.

Can I ask, why is it unattractive to have more education? I'm still an undergrad with no professional experience, so please forgive the ignorance. My friends and I consider multiple degrees to be a boon for job searching. Should we be avoiding this?

If my old boss got a resume on his desk with a second degree listed, he would have been really excited (which is humorous in retrospect), and the HR lady would not have any technical knowledge to make him skeptical.

That's encouraging. And I think I understand that it is assumed that people with multiple degrees may have been failing in one or the other. Is it always assumed to be the case in situations where the hiring staff actually know what's up?

What I mean to ask: if you have good performance in both degrees, is it still not a good idea to double up?

 

[Locrian]

What I mean to ask: if you have good performance in both degrees, is it still not a good idea to double up?

Maybe, but probably not. Personally, I would describe it something like this:

The value of adding a second degree in a similar field is very small.

Employers frown upon perma-students; a candidate’s additional time spent in college is not looked upon positively.

If you can get both degrees without adding any additional time in college, then it’s a win. However, there are other activities that could add a lot more value than the second degree (internships, real job experience).

Going back to school after graduation for another BS is pretty much guaranteed to be a losing proposition.

These thoughts are just on getting that first job though. I can imagine scenarios where going back to school was a long term win, even if it was a short term loss. Everyone will assume that their return to school is one of these exceptions, but most aren’t.

 

[Choppy]

To weigh in on the last couple of posts with respect to multiple undergraduate degrees.

First you have to be a little careful about what you're calling two (or more) degrees. There is a difference between a double major and completing two distinct degrees in my opinion. I realize that some universities actually give you two pieces of paper for double majoring, but when someone tells me he or she has earned two degrees, I expect that person has completed eight years of academic study. If that is not true, I feel as if the candidate is misrepresenting him or herself.

Where you have two similar degrees, it can create the impression (at least to me) that you've entered into a holding pattern... and that you're not expanding your horizons, rather, you're just trying to rack up a high score based on skills you already have. I try not to be so biassed and read so much into things, honestly. But that's what will go through my mind when I scan through one of umpteen resumes. One exception to this would be a physics major who went back for engineering - simply to get the professional credential.

 

[TMFKAN64]

Can I ask, why is it unattractive to have more education? I'm still an undergrad with no professional experience, so please forgive the ignorance.

It's the type of education... moving *up* (by getting a master's degree or a Ph.D.) is a positive thing. Getting more than one bachelor's degree just looks like a lack of focus... it seems as if you are just casting around wildly looking for something that interests you while avoiding work.

It's not fatal by any means though.

EDIT: And let me add that I agree with Choppy, a double major is different than two separate degrees. I think the "lack of focus" criticism could still be valid if the fields were wildly different, but no one would blink at a physics and math double major, for example.

 

[JakeBrodskyPE]

Lots of great advice here. Look, I'm going to summarize the situation by asking you what they call a person who graduates last in their class from Medical School: They call him or her "Doctor".

The point is that as far as most HR staff are concerned, YOU PASSED. This is much better than not passing. Years ago, I knew a lady who claimed to have graduated from an ivy league school, but later it was discovered that she didn't. She was fired shortly thereafter.

Whatever the situation, DO NOT LIE about your academic past. It is too easy to check.

That said, most companies couldn't care less what grades you got. Most employers know that there is very little correlation between grades in school and performance on the job. However, as others have pointed out, if you barely squeaked by, was it because you didn't like the subject? You didn't like the instructors? Perhaps, it wasn't what you thought it would be.

Those are honest problems that everyone has sooner or later. So you should ask yourself what you'd rather be doing. If you don't know, beware of those who think they have all the answers for you --because their answers are not necessarily good for you.

Good Luck...

 

[twofish-quant]

First of all, nowhere do you have to list the fact that you pursued a second undergraduate degree on your resume (and employers in Canada will not ask how many degrees you have). So pursuing a 2nd undergraduate degree will not have a negative impact on employment.

In the case of the OP, this is going to be very difficult to do since there is going to be a gap in the resume. If he does the second degree while being gainfully employed, that's not going to be a negative, but if he stays a full time student, this is going to be very bad.

 

[twofish-quant]

Can I ask, why is it unattractive to have more education?

education != school

It's not unattractive to have more education. It's extremely unattractive if it looks like you can't function outside of a school environment.

My friends and I consider multiple degrees to be a boon for job searching. Should we be avoiding this?

Multiple bachelors degrees in the similar fields, yes.

That's encouraging. And I think I understand that it is assumed that people with multiple degrees may have been failing in one or the other. Is it always assumed to be the case in situations where the hiring staff actually know what's up?

People will assume the worst.

What I mean to ask: if you have good performance in both degrees, is it still not a good idea to double up?

For the jobs, I've seen, it's a horrible idea. Now, it's a great thing to get more skills, so if you take courses outside of a degree program, that's considered a great thing. Also what I've said doesn't apply if you do something very different, or if you get something for certification purposes.

 

[twofish-quant]

The point is that as far as most HR staff are concerned, YOU PASSED. This is much better than not passing.

Yes. I knew people from the "square root club" at MIT. Those were MIT students whose sqrt(GPA) > GPA. Their motto was "my degree looks like your degree" and they didn't have too much trouble getting jobs. I knew someone who was a member of that club, and he does not remember second semester sophomore year. He just remembers that it was extremely fun.

Part of it is that passing looks good. If you have to go through several rounds of academic probation, go through multiple classes, and end up just barely passing by, you didn't give up. That looks better than someone that has a 4.0 that will panic the millisecond they have a 3.9.

 

[JakeBrodskyPE]

Part of it is that passing looks good. If you have to go through several rounds of academic probation, go through multiple classes, and end up just barely passing by, you didn't give up. That looks better than someone that has a 4.0 that will panic the millisecond they have a 3.9.

In fact, perfectionism is often a predictor of poor performance. The goal is to get things done without spending too much effort concerning yourself with the minutia of getting the process exactly right.

Going further, it seems there is a mind-set that if you go to school and learn all kinds of stuff that somehow you will magically be transported into the work force and hit the ground running. This is nonsense.

It has been a while since we've seen any interns on our staff, but I can tell you in no uncertain terms, it takes an experienced professional at least a year to get settled into a job at our company where they can work without close supervision. I think it would take a minimum of three years to take a fresh graduate out of college to get them to a point where they are actually productive and can independently make useful contributions.

 

[Aero51]

Before making any decisions ask yourself why do you have a low GPA. Here's a list that may help you:

Do you find the work that you are doing interesting or satisfying?
How many obligations (personal/extracurricular) outside of school do you have?
Where does school fit on your list of priorities (on a typical day would you play 3hrs of XBox before doing hw)?
Do you understand what you are learning/have learned?

Think of other questions to ask yourself, these are just for guidance. The answers to these questions are important because they may reflect who you are as a student and who you may become as a professional.

For instance:
If you are a slacker as a student, you'll probably be a slacker in the professional world until you almost get fired. If you are slacking off because you don't find your work interesting, don't expect your job to be much better.

Perhaps you are going through some family/girlfriend problems. If your head was continuously clouded you will not perform as best you can no matter where you go. If this is the case I strongly recommend you find a way to alleviate your problems constructively.

There is also the possibility that the subject you are learning just isn't right for you. Everybody has different skills, maybe physics isn't yours. Take some time to learn about yourself; its not worth being unhappy the rest of your life.

If none of these are the case and you truly want to pursue a career in your field. DONT GIVE UP! I have a good friend who was in a similar situation and is currently looking for a job in the manufacturing side of the aero industry. I have full faith he'll get what he wants.

Hope this helped. PM me if you have any questions.