What Determines the Zig Zag Pattern of Lightning?

In summary, the experts in the conversation discussed the predictability of lightning and how its path is determined by various factors such as air conductivity, fractal nature of the discharge channel, and wind movement. They also mentioned the use of lightning rods and other methods of lightning protection, but expressed a desire for a more effective solution. The formation of the leader and the complexity of the electromagnetic fields generated by lightning were also discussed. The issue of lightning damaging electronics on sailboats was brought up and the experts debated whether the current completely leaves the conductor or finds an additional parallel route. They also mentioned previous experiences with lightning strikes and the difficulty of finding a sufficient conductor for the high voltage and current of lightning.
  • #36
In the ground. The melted sand. Fulgurites also exhibit jaggedy branchings. different looking but oddly frozen in motion. maybe measurable consistencies in the distribution of branch endings. Any body know where this potential study is?
 
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  • #37
Hi and welcome to PF! Thanks for joining the discussion.
EE Comp said:
The melted sand. Fulgurites
I am sure I've seen these at some point, but never remembered until you mentioned them, very much appreciated!

I'm definite I have the system down in my mind but I don't know how to relate all the variables just perfectly. It has quantum roots so prediction is probable but certainly not classic.
 
  • #38
  • #39
jerromyjon said:
http://www-solar.mcs.st-andrews.ac.uk/~alan/sun_course/Chapter2/node11.html
The "frozen-in" theorem, is just saying the magnetic field stays fixed to the plasma pinch, correct? So as the "electron gas" as if it were a Bernoulli relation drags the field with it across the counteracting ions... you get the "z" pinch?

I looked at the link you provided, and I also read about Alfvén's frozen in theorem on Wikipedia. Sorry, but I don't understand what they are saying, or how those relate to the question in this thread. Can you elaborate please?
 
  • #40
jerromyjon said:
http://www-solar.mcs.st-andrews.ac.uk/~alan/sun_course/Chapter2/node11.html
The "frozen-in" theorem, is just saying the magnetic field stays fixed to the plasma pinch, correct? So as the "electron gas" as if it were a Bernoulli relation drags the field with it across the counteracting ions... you get the "z" pinch?
I'm a bit confused.

The frozen in theorem seems to apply in a PEC fluid. But it's not clear to me that it applies in an intense electric field (which is sort of the opposite of a PEC).

I can understand how a moving stream of charge carriers (perhaps an electron gas) could be modeled as having a fixed magnetic field around it (with the field moving at the same speed as the gas). But I am missing the insight this view brings.

The frozen in theorem seems to allow charges to move only along field lines. The field lines are circular around the current path. Are you claiming the charge carriers will spiral along the current path? If so, how is this relevant? Or are saying this is the mechanism that keeps the current in a single(ish) stream?
 
  • #41
Jeff Rosenbury said:
Or are saying this is the mechanism that keeps the current in a single(ish) stream?
Yeah pretty much what I'm getting at. The plasma pinch goes up into the cloud normally. That's the + ions. The branching down from the clouds is the + ions going up.
 
  • #42
Jeff Rosenbury said:
I've been taught that lightning is somewhat random.
Do lightning charge carriers gain enough momentum to keep going despite the fairly strong forces bending them? In air, it would seem they might gain relativistic speeds (with millions of volts potential), but in copper? It doesn't seem likely. And if lightning wants to go straight so badly, why does it zig zag across the sky?
The lightning spreads (branches) in ways, that have the least resistance, that is the most conductive paths. These ionized and short-lived paths, ion channels (anions and cations) are formed already during the initialization phase of the lightning.
 
  • #44
Jeff Rosenbury said:
And if lightning wants to go straight so badly, why does it zig zag across the sky?

I don't really think the hilited bit is a valid assumption, considering all lightning discharges I have ever seen invalidate that statement
 

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