News What Does Israel Hope to Achieve with Ongoing Conflict?

[tiny-tim]

Israelis support the two-state solution

Zionism does seem to provide a different contradiction for Israel, though: it appears to me that Israel as a country supports, in principle, the two state solution...

Did you not see the Likud platform I quoted directly under Cyrus' post, or are you just being intentionally obtuse here?

There's nothing obtuse about stating a fact which is regularly supported by opnion polls.

And how does the Likud platform contradict russ's statement that Israel as a country supports, in principle, the two state solution?

Likud received only 21.3% of votes cast (21.6% of valid votes) in the election (see http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/History/M...n_Israel_February_2009.htm?DisplayMode=print"),

and so will have to share power with coalition partners who do support the two-state solution.

Both the Israeli public do, and the Israeli governement will (it hasn't been formed yet) support the two-state solution. ​

 

[ThomasT]

Both the Israeli public do, and the Israeli governement will (it hasn't been formed yet) support the two-state solution. ​

Of course the government will say that it supports a two-state solution. What sorts of actions could it take to show that it actually does want this? What is it necessary for the Israeli government to do to facilitate two autonomous states?

The Israeli government's actions thus far are in line with the hypothesis that its general policy is to remain in and further colonize territories that must be abandoned by them if a two-state solution is to become a reality rather than just a sound byte. Their actions indicate that their policy is to pursue a succession of 'long term interim agreements', during which Israeli settlement of Palestinian territories will be allowed and encouraged to continue, and which eventually will render a two-state solution impossible.

Meanwhile, as long as the Israeli government doesn't proactively pursue a two-state solution, then the restrictions on Palestinian freedom increase, and the de facto ethnic cleansing of Mandate Palestine continues.

 

[tiny-tim]

Meanwhile, as long as the Israeli government doesn't proactively pursue a two-state solution

They have been proactively pursuing it, but "it takes two", and neither Israel nor the West see a credible peace partner at the moment.

… the de facto ethnic cleansing of Mandate Palestine continues.

What ethnic cleansing is continuing?

The Palestinian population is actually increasing, and no Palestinians are being required to move to other areas.

What are you talking about?

 

[ThomasT]

They have been proactively pursuing it, but "it takes two", and neither Israel nor the West see a credible peace partner at the moment.

If the US and Israel wanted an autonomous Palestinian state per the UN mandated divisions, then I have to think that there would be one. The US and Israel have the power to implement a two-state solution. That it hasn't been implemented is evidence to me that what the US and Israel are really seeking is something else.

I asked what you think it's necessary for Israel to do to facilitate two autonomous states -- one Palestine and one Israel. Exactly what 'proactive' steps has Israel taken toward this? The occupied territories are still occupied, the establishment of outposts, settlement of the West Bank, and restrictions on Palestinian liberty are increasing, not decreasing.

Official pronouncements by the US and Israeli governments notwithstanding, I really don't think that either government wants an autonomous Palestinian state.

 

[tiny-tim]

I repeat…

… the de facto ethnic cleansing of Mandate Palestine continues.
What ethnic cleansing is continuing?

The Palestinian population is actually increasing, and no Palestinians are being required to move to other areas.

What are you talking about?

 

[tiny-tim]

The US and Israel have the power to implement a two-state solution.

That's ridiculous … a permanent peaceful two-state solution requires the cooperation of the Palestinians.

The US and Israel have no power over the Palestinians …

they can't even stop them firing rockets at Israeli civilian targets

Exactly what 'proactive' steps has Israel taken toward this?

Complete withdrawal from the Gaza strip, for a start.

Partial withdrawal from much of the West Bank.

Providing the Palestinian police force with guns.

Numerous offers, and years of restraint, in the hope of peace.

The occupied territories are still occupied

Again, the Gaza strip isn't.

, the establishment of outposts, settlement of the West Bank, and restrictions on Palestinian liberty are increasing, not decreasing.

The longer certain Palestinian groups insist on killing as many Israeli civilians as they can, the more Israel is going to strengthen its negotiating position for the final round by these "facts on the ground".

If Palestinians genuinely want a permanent peaceful two-state solution as soon as possible, they should get out on the streets and demonstrate against these groups, not vote for them.

 

[nabki]

We all know how Palestinians went on a mass holiday in '48 to Syria, Lebanon, Egypt and Jordan, and how they forgot to return.
Then in '67, how some of the holiday goers relatives followed them to try and see why they didn't return.
Then, how Israel started promoting long vacations out of the country, and how they are lovingly showing Palestinians the downsides of owning a home in Jerusalem, such as the danger of having it bulldozed, or getting evicted because you didn't build it with one of those ever so hard to get permits you should have...
How those squatters in East Jerusalem have been squatting for thousands of years on land they claim as their own, but as everybody knows is actually park space. how inconsiderate.

Oh wait...

 

[tiny-tim]

The Jewish naqba

We all know how Palestinians went on a mass holiday in '48 to Syria, Lebanon, Egypt and Jordan, and how they forgot to return …

Jews like holidays too!

Don't forget the almost equal number of Jews who went on mass holidays from Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt and other Arab countries about the same time, and also forgot to return.

 

[Count Iblis]

The longer certain Palestinian groups insist on killing as many Israeli civilians as they can, the more Israel is going to strengthen its negotiating position for the final round by these "facts on the ground".

If Palestinians genuinely want a permanent peaceful two-state solution as soon as possible, they should get out on the streets and demonstrate against these groups, not vote for them.

If the US were occupied there surely would be groups who would resist that occupation, regardless of any temporary cease fire pending the full withdrawal of the occupying forces. The fact that any deal had been reached while under occupation would take away the broad consensus you would need for such a deal to be universially accepted among the population.


So, you have to admit that the Israelis really have a flawed theory about the behavior of a population under occupation like I wrote about in my previous post in this thread.

 

[tiny-tim]

wishful thinking …

So, you have to admit that the Israelis really have a flawed theory about the behavior of a population under occupation like I wrote about in my previous post in this thread.

theory? oh, you mean …

Now, the fact is that the Israeli theory based on wishful thinking about the behavior of a population under occupation has been debunked by their own observations. The Israelis, however, still insist that their flawed theory is correct. They theorize that …

The Israelis don't have such a theory.

You're just making this all up, aren't you?

 

[Hurkyl]

If the US and Israel wanted an autonomous Palestinian state per the UN mandated divisions, then I have to think that there would be one.

Of course they don't want that. At the very least, it would have to be "an autonomous Palestinian state that doesn't shoot rockets at Israel" before it could be acceptable.

 

[Evo]

This thread is going in circles. Locked.