What does it mean: "up to total derivatives"

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the phrase "up to total derivatives" as it pertains to the Lagrangian for a non-relativistic complex scalar field in the context of superfluidity. Participants explore the implications of this phrase in relation to boundary conditions and the mathematical treatment of total derivatives in field theory.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant seeks clarification on the meaning of "up to total derivatives" in the context of the Lagrangian, specifically regarding the implications of dropping total derivatives.
  • Another participant states that the difference between the initial and final expressions is a total derivative.
  • Some participants explain that the total derivative can be interpreted as the derivative of some function, which can be converted into a boundary integral via Stokes' theorem, and that this does not affect the equations of motion when boundary conditions are fixed.
  • There is a discussion about whether boundary conditions need to consider fields at infinity, with some arguing that they do, while others suggest that fields are often treated as having compact support.
  • One participant raises a question about the relationship between AdS spacetime and its conformal boundary, leading to a clarification about the nature of the boundary being Minkowski spacetime.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the necessity of considering fields at infinity and the implications of boundary conditions, indicating that there is no consensus on this aspect of the discussion.

Contextual Notes

Some participants note that while fields are often assumed to have compact support, this is not universally applicable, particularly in the context of (A)dS spaces and holography.

Ken Gallock
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Hi.
I don't understand the meaning of "up to total derivatives".

It was used during a lecture on superfluid. It says as follows:

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Lagrangian for complex scalar field ##\phi## is
$$
\mathcal{L}=\frac12 (\partial_\mu \phi)^* \partial^\mu \phi - \frac12 m^2 |\phi|^2 -\lambda |\phi|^4.
$$
Take non-relativistic limit:
$$
\phi(x)=\dfrac{1}{\sqrt{2m}}e^{-imt}\varphi(t,x).
$$
Then, lagrangian for non-relativistic complex scalar field ##\mathcal{L}_{NR}## can be written as follows:
$$
\mathcal{L}_{NR}=\partial_t\phi^* \partial_t \phi - \nabla \phi^* \cdot \nabla \phi - m^2|\phi|^2 -\lambda|\phi|^4\\
=\dfrac{1}{2m}(im\varphi^*+\dot{\varphi}^*)(-im\varphi+\dot{\varphi})-\dfrac{1}{2m}\nabla\varphi^*\cdot \nabla \varphi -\dfrac{m}{2}|\varphi|^2-\dfrac{\lambda}{4m^2}|\varphi|^4.
$$
In non-relativistic limit,
$$
\partial_t\sim \nabla^2,
$$
therefore, we only consider first order of ##\partial_t##.
$$
\mathcal{L}_{NR}=\dfrac{1}{2m}[im(-im)\varphi^*\varphi+im\varphi^*\dot{\varphi}-im\dot{\varphi}^*\varphi]-\dfrac{1}{2m}\nabla\varphi^*\cdot \nabla \varphi -\dfrac{m}{2}|\varphi|^2-\dfrac{\lambda}{4m^2}|\varphi|^4\\
\simeq \dfrac{i}{2}(\varphi^*\dot{\varphi}-\dot{\varphi}^*\varphi)-\dfrac{1}{2m}\nabla\varphi^*\cdot \nabla \varphi -\dfrac{\lambda}{4m^2}|\varphi|^4\\
$$
Now, up to total derivatives,
$$
\mathcal{L}_{NR}\simeq \dfrac{i}{2}(\varphi^*\dot{\varphi}-\dot{\varphi}^*\varphi)-\dfrac{1}{2m}\nabla\varphi^*\cdot \nabla \varphi -\dfrac{\lambda}{4m^2}|\varphi|^4\\
=\varphi^*\left( i\partial_t+\dfrac{\nabla^2}{2m} \right) \varphi -\dfrac{\lambda}{4m^2}|\varphi|^4.
$$
-----------------------------------------
I don't understand the last part of this. Drop total derivatives?
 
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Any difference between the first expression and the final expression is a total derivative.
 
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It means the difference between the terms is a derivative of some function. (e.g. In 3-D, the gradient of something.) In the language of differential forms, an exact form. The point is that the total derivative (or exact form) in the action could be converted into a boundary integral by Stokes' theorem (in 3-D the Gauss' theorem).

In classical fields, you do variational derivatives fixing the boundary conditions, so the boundary variation is zero and does not affect the equation of motion.

In quantum fields of many-body physics, you path integrate coherent states. In any case, it will only contribute as a constant factor and can be absorbed into path integral measures which is non-dynamical.
 
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ZealScience said:
It means the difference between the terms is a derivative of some function. (e.g. In 3-D, the gradient of something.) In the language of differential forms, an exact form. The point is that the total derivative (or exact form) in the action could be converted into a boundary integral by Stokes' theorem (in 3-D the Gauss' theorem).

In classical fields, you do variational derivatives fixing the boundary conditions, so the boundary variation is zero and does not affect the equation of motion.

In quantum fields of many-body physics, you path integrate coherent states. In any case, it will only contribute as a constant factor and can be absorbed into path integral measures which is non-dynamical.

Thanks.
So, we don't have to think about fields at the far away like ##x^i \rightarrow \infty##.
And from Gauss' theorem, an integral can be calculated like:
$$
\int_M d^3x \partial_i X^i \sim \int_{\partial M}(d^2x)_i X^i = 0.
$$
 
Well, we do have to think about it, because we need to impose boundary conditions. Mathematically, often it is said that fields have compact support on spacetime. This is not always the case though; think about (A)dS spaces and holography.
 
haushofer said:
Well, we do have to think about it, because we need to impose boundary conditions. Mathematically, often it is said that fields have compact support on spacetime. This is not always the case though; think about (A)dS spaces and holography.
I'm not sure about holography, but do you mean that ##d##-dimension AdS spacetime's boundary is ##(d-1)##-dimension CFT spacetime?
 
If you mean that the conformal boundary of AdS is Minkowski spacetime: yes.
 

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