What Does the Russian Word Poshlost Really Mean?

[sbrothy]

post #119 from @sbrothy
A little hard to follow and seems to cover too many topics, and that is just up to about 18 minutes through the video timeline. I hope we do not have a quiz afterwards.

I asked for it; hoped a linguist would give us some answers about things been discussed. I wished they could be simpler. In that video, Dr. Sapolsky is a neuroendocrinologist, not a linguist. At least we should be aware, Linguistics is multidisciplinary.

About 30 minutes in, Sapolsky talks about brain damage and strokes and aphasia but I am stopping now; can not keep up...

Yeh. I realized after watching most of it myself (I actually fell asleep at the end! ) swear I heatd that guy talk at length about language. Funny it's not the one marked "Language". I guess he talk *a lot*!

 

[pinball1970]

I don't think there ever could be an untranslatable word into English (speaking for my people) . There are enough words in the language to capture whatever that word is. What is lost is a nuance that I as the non native speaker of the UTW have not encountered. The History, literature, religion, culture behind it. That's been pointed out by previous posters reading a book in one language then the original language.
Laughing at someone's misfortune hits the spot I think. Schadenfreude.
Comedy is based on it, the English had well attended public executions in the past so we should have had a word for it.
The fact we don't and the Germans do is an example of that nuance , in my opinion.
@fresh_42 has discussed this word previously.

 

[Hornbein]

A popular song from Japan is entitled 'My Love Is A Stapler'. I think this is because the Japanese word for a stapler is hotchkiss. Hotchkiss was the first brand to make it there. I'd guess it is a bilingual pun on hot kiss.

 

[Keith_McClary]

A popular song from Japan is entitled 'My Love Is A Stapler'. I think this is because the Japanese word for a stapler is hotchkiss. Hotchkiss was the first brand to make it there. I'd guess it is a bilingual pun on hot kiss.

The name Hotchkiss was brought to England in the great wave of migration following the Norman Conquest of 1066. It comes from the Norman personal name Roger. Hotchkis was a baptismal name which means Roger.

 

[BWV]

The name Hotchkiss was brought to England in the great wave of migration following the Norman Conquest of 1066. It comes from the Norman personal name Roger. Hotchkis was a baptismal name which means Roger.
View attachment 289315

That site cracks me up - is there any surname that does not have an exalted noble lineage?

found this surprising - no one I ever met with the surname Patel looked like a Viking:

The roots of the Patel surname reach back to the language of the Viking settlers who populated the rugged shores of Scotlandin the Medieval era. The Patel surname comes from someone having lived any of several place names in England, such as Battle in Sussex. Contrary to what one would expect, the name is not a nicknameor occupational name derived from the word battle.

 

[Jonathan Scott]

While living in Sweden, I tried to say something about a "chicken leg bone" on my plate. The problem was that the word for "leg" and the word for "bone" are both "ben". I never did solve that one.

I also had difficulty translating "grandparents" or even "grandmother" to Swedish because (as in some other languages) there are different terms for father's parents or mother's parents, and similarly for father's father, father's mother, mother's father and mother's mother.

 

[Hornbein]

That site cracks me up - is there any surname that does not have an exalted noble lineage?

found this surprising - no one I ever met with the surname Patel looked like a Viking:

View attachment 289318

The roots of the Patel surname reach back to the language of the Viking settlers who populated the rugged shores of Scotlandin the Medieval era. The Patel surname comes from someone having lived any of several place names in England, such as Battle in Sussex. Contrary to what one would expect, the name is not a nicknameor occupational name derived from the word battle.

I'm quite suspicious of DNA heritage too. Many are told they are descended from Ghenghiz Kahn.

Professor Kelleher related that his father said of a similar situation : there never was a Kelleher coat of arms. If there were it would be a wheelbarrow full of earth.

 

[green slime]

I don't think there ever could be an untranslatable word into English (speaking for my people) . There are enough words in the language to capture whatever that word is. What is lost is a nuance that I as the non native speaker of the UTW have not encountered. The History, literature, religion, culture behind it. That's been pointed out by previous posters reading a book in one language then the original language.
Laughing at someone's misfortune hits the spot I think. Schadenfreude.
Comedy is based on it, the English had well attended public executions in the past so we should have had a word for it.
The fact we don't and the Germans do is an example of that nuance , in my opinion.
@fresh_42 has discussed this word previously.

Except people speaking English use the word "Schadenfreude." I heard it yesterday in a BBC podcast. IOW it is on its way to being adopted into the language. Just as Smorgasbord, ombudsman, and a whole host of other words have been.

 

[green slime]

While living in Sweden, I tried to say something about a "chicken leg bone" on my plate. The problem was that the word for "leg" and the word for "bone" are both "ben". I never did solve that one.

I also had difficulty translating "grandparents" or even "grandmother" to Swedish because (as in some other languages) there are different terms for father's parents or mother's parents, and similarly for father's father, father's mother, mother's father and mother's mother.

Kycklinglårben? Usually you are eating the thigh of the hen. Generally, they are sold as "kycklinglår," and not "kycklingben." :)

"mor- och farföräldrar" or "far- och morföräldrar" is the common construction.

 

[Jonathan Scott]

Kycklinglårben? Usually you are eating the thigh of the hen. Generally, they are sold as "kycklinglår," and not "kycklingben." :)

"mor- och farföräldrar" or "far- och morföräldrar" is the common construction.

Thanks for helping to refresh my Swedish (it was about 35 years ago that I was living in Göteborg).

I had thought that "kycklinglårben" was another way to refer to the whole thing, not just the bone.

I realize that if you want to refer to all four grandparents, you can use one of those constructions, but the reference was to someone having grandparents (i.e. just one pair) staying with them, and I didn't know which it was. I think I settled for "far- eller morföräldrar".

 

[PeroK]

Except people speaking English use the word "Schadenfreude." I heard it yesterday in a BBC podcast. IOW it is on its way to being adopted into the language. Just as Smorgasbord, ombudsman, and a whole host of other words have been.

Many years ago I was speaking (in German) to the German Railways in connection to electronic file transfers. The German used the word die Variable-block-size.

One interpretation of this is that German has no word for variable block size, so uses the English. And, in that sense, it's untranslatable. The other interpretation is that variable block size can be translated into German - you just adopt the English as a new German word.

Logically these are equivalent; although, of course, politically and pseudo-scientifically you can argue about it.

 

[green slime]

Many years ago I was speaking (in German) to the German Railways in connection to electronic file transfers. The German used the word die Variable-block-size.

One interpretation of this is that German has no word for variable block size, so uses the English. And, in that sense, it's untranslatable. The other interpretation is that variable block size can be translated into German - you just adopt the English as a new German word.

Logically these are equivalent; although, of course, politically and pseudo-scientifically you can argue about it.

Or, that there is an expression, but that it didn't come to mind, because the speaker is so imbedded with reading literature in English or that the German is so close to the English, precisely because it is not English to start with...

In Swedish, it would be "Variabel blockstorlek", and that is correctly spelled and translated. I'm guessing it's something similar in German. Listeners can often hear what they expect, which is yet another fascinating aspect of human communication. How do we really manage to communicate at all?!?

Variable" comes from a Latin word, variābilis, with "vari(us)"' meaning "various" and "-ābilis"' meaning "-able", meaning "capable of changing".

"Block" is in itself a very old word from Germanic or old French ('bloc' ca 1300), feel free to argue.

"Size" is another word borrowed from French (1300s) ...

 

[pinball1970]

Yes words are adopted and hi-jacked but that is not what I was getting at.

Do I “feel” the same as a German when I say the word? what does the word evoke? What is lost in translation? What am I meant to get from the word?

Any in terms of untranslatable …

Bulldozer is a good one is one that went over the channel in the other direction, to France.

The word does not really make sense at all, What does a bull have to do with a truck? Dozing in English means sleep, that what I though it was as a kid.

Just looked it up and it has connections to the industrial revolution, a machine that bends metal and also the “dose” of a bull ie being big, presumably a large pile moved by the digging part.

Having explained all that to the French powers that be (in the 19C presumably when they decided they could do with a few) they must have turned round and said, nope that’s stupid cannot be bothered with all that well just call it Le Bulldozer.

Ease, speed and a little bit of laziness may have played apart besides just being deemed untranslatable

Potato faired better

 

[green slime]

bulldoze (v.)​

by 1880, "intimidate by violence," from an earlier noun, bulldose "a severe beating or lashing" (1876), said by contemporary sources to be literally "a dose fit for a bull," a slang word referring to the intimidation beating of black voters (by either blacks or whites) in the chaotic 1876 U.S. presidential election. See bull (n.1) + dose (n.). The bull element in it seems to be connected to that in bull-whip and might be directly from that word.

bulldozer (n.)​

"person who intimidates others by threats or violence," 1876, agent noun from bulldoze (q.v.). Meaning extended to "an engine-powered ground-clearing caterpillar tractor" in 1930.

From
https://www.etymonline.com/word/bulldozer

 

[pinball1970]

bulldoze (v.)​

by 1880, "intimidate by violence," from an earlier noun, bulldose "a severe beating or lashing" (1876), said by contemporary sources to be literally "a dose fit for a bull," a slang word referring to the intimidation beating of black voters (by either blacks or whites) in the chaotic 1876 U.S. presidential election. See bull (n.1) + dose (n.). The bull element in it seems to be connected to that in bull-whip and might be directly from that word.

It is not that the word has multiple cryptic or crystal etymology it is the fact the word was taken wholesale rather than do a potato on it.

 

[symbolipoint]

Or, that there is an expression, but that it didn't come to mind, because the speaker is so imbedded with reading literature in English or that the German is so close to the English, precisely because it is not English to start with...

In Swedish, it would be "Variabel blockstorlek", and that is correctly spelled and translated. I'm guessing it's something similar in German. Listeners can often hear what they expect, which is yet another fascinating aspect of human communication. How do we really manage to communicate at all?!?

Variable" comes from a Latin word, variābilis, with "vari(us)"' meaning "various" and "-ābilis"' meaning "-able", meaning "capable of changing".

"Block" is in itself a very old word from Germanic or old French ('bloc' ca 1300), feel free to argue.

"Size" is another word borrowed from French (1300s) ...

I say, all English native-speakers return to the use of the Anglo-Saxon language!(that is supposed to be a humorous remark.)

 

[CelHolo]

I think you can explain most words of course, but that's not really the same as a practical translation and there are certainly words with complex cultural connotations that even with a long explanation one will not fully understand their scope and use. Rather you'd need long term immersion in that language. So in this sense there would be untranslatable words.

 

[green slime]

I think you can explain most words of course, but that's not really the same as a practical translation and there are certainly words with complex cultural connotations that even with a long explanation one will not fully understand their scope and use. Rather you'd need long term immersion in that language. So in this sense there would be untranslatable words.

In that sense, every word is untranslatable. Take that a step further, and that just means no humans can ever really understand each other, even when attempting to do so in what appears to be the same language. Differing cultures and interpretations exist within each country.

 

[CelHolo]

In that sense, every word is untranslatable. Take that a step further, and that just means no humans can ever really understand each other, even when attempting to do so in what appears to be the same language. Differing cultures and interpretations exist within each country.

I don't see any connection between needing immersion in a second language to nail down advanced vocabulary use and "no humans can ever understand each other". The former is just a basic aspect of language learning, the latter is an unrelated overblown non-sequitur.

If you learn a language different enough from your native language(s) it's often the case that some words take a long time to learn the correct usage of, so clearly any short explanation or footnote in a translation is usually not entirely enough and you need immersion. Doesn't mean people can't understand each other.

 

[fresh_42]

I think what really makes different languages different are not specific words that may not have a one-to-one correspondence, it is the metaphors, aphorisms, and idioms. We have expressions that everyone understands, but which do not make any sense at all if translated.

 

[green slime]

I don't see any connection between needing immersion in a second language to nail down advanced vocabulary use and "no humans can ever understand each other". The former is just a basic aspect of language learning, the latter is an unrelated overblown non-sequitur.

If you learn a language different enough from your native language(s) it's often the case that some words take a long time to learn the correct usage of, so clearly any short explanation or footnote in a translation is usually not entirely enough and you need immersion. Doesn't mean people can't understand each other.

Because at the stage of understanding that you are talking about, it's not really the language you are immersing in, it is the culture. Langauge is part of the culture.

 

[Rive]

some words take a long time to learn the correct usage of

And sometimes there is no other way than to learn them as complete expressions, or even: handful of expressions (still belonging to the same word).

 

[CelHolo]

Because at the stage of understanding that you are talking about, it's not really the language you are immersing in, it is the culture. Langauge is part of the culture.

Yeah and some words denote cultural concepts, thus requiring immersion for a full understanding.

Anyway I think I've said all I can.

 

[Arjan82]

Another funny phenomenon is that between the Dutch and Belgium language (the Flanders part). They are actually the same languages (the winner of the yearly Dutch national spelling contest is usually Belgian...) but the Dutch have some, I don't know, lack of collective self esteem?!? They (we... I'm Dutch...) always think a new untranslated word from English (or France a couple of decades back) is way cooler/fancier/urban? than coming up with a new word.

Our Belgian neighbors actually do come up with new words, and that sounds sometimes really funny for a Dutchman... :) Some examples (Guess only funny for the Dutch people around here):

Flanders - Dutch:
Droogzwierder/ droogslingeraar/ droogkast – Centrifuge (from French I guess...)
Pompelmoes – Grapefruit (English)
Valschermspringer – Parachutist (French)
Wipzaag – Decoupeerzaag (French)
Zelfklever – Sticker (English)
Zwerfauto – Camper (English)

Ps: And Belgium have the tendency to turn words and expressions around...
appelsien - sinasappel
zeker en vast - vast en zeker
fauna en flora - flora en fauna

Pps:
Another example, maybe even more funny is between Dutch and African:
Amperbroekkie - string (same as English word)
Hysbak - lift (again, same as English)
Yuppiegriep - burn-out (again...)
Stokkielekker - lolly (...)

 

[Hornbein]

A nice discussion of this at
https://www.deviantart.com/forum/devart/general/2651614/

 

[S.G. Janssens]

Guess only funny for the Dutch people around here

This was also fun for a half-Dutch, half-Belgian reader.

 

[fresh_42]

This was also fun for a half-Dutch, half-Belgian reader.

And I observed that Flanders is closer to its German origin whereas Dutch imports new English terms.

 

[fresh_42]

Here is another untranslatable German word: egal.

It obviously stems from French égal which is from Latin aequalis (equal). We use it as an adjective, but it does not mean equal. It means: I don't care (bother), anyway, equally valid, up to you. One can say that something is egal (anyway, equally valid), or it is egal to me (don't care, up to you as an answer to an or question). What makes it untranslateable is the inherent lethargy, so egal that even a single word is almost one too many (let alone a sentence in order to capture the meaning).

 

[PeroK]

Here is another untranslatable German word: egal.

It obviously stems from French égal which is from Latin aequalis (equal). We use it as an adjective, but it does not mean equal. It means: I don't care (bother), anyway, equally valid, up to you. One can say that something is egal (anyway, equally valid), or it is egal to me (don't care, up to you as an answer to an or question). What makes it untranslateable is the inherent lethargy, so egal that even a single word is almost one too many (let alone a sentence in order to capture the meaning).

Yeah, whatever!

 

[fresh_42]

Yeah, whatever!

Close, but we have whatever, too.