News What Exactly Is Happening In the Arab/Persian World?

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Protests in Egypt have escalated into violence, with reports of protesters being beaten and arrested, including journalists. The unrest is characterized as significant but not an outright uprising, contrasting with the recent events in Tunisia. Rumors suggest that President Mubarak's family may have fled the country, raising concerns about potential instability. As protests continue, there are fears that the situation could worsen, particularly with a planned massive demonstration. The emergence of a leaderless youth movement is seen as a critical factor in challenging Mubarak's long-standing regime.
  • #511


Nicodemus said:
You're right, which is why in the case of someone like Saddam, we backed off when he went off the rails, or backed both sides of the Iran-Iraq war. We used Afghanistan and its people as proxies, and it was our LACK of stewardship later which in part, led to the terrorist threat we face now. Our time in central america has left Guatemala a sideshow, Nicaragua is doing pretty well I'll admit, but Venezuela has Chavez. Chile is better, granted, but Cuba and Castro are still mocking us.

Some of these partners were definitely autonomous, some could only maintain power with aid, and some were proxies. The word looks a lot like what it is: recovering from a thorough trampling by two "cold"-warring superpowers.

Rather than comment on your specific statements, I'll put one more file on the table - Somalia. Sometimes it's better to leash the mean dogs and feed them - rather than to let them run free at the expense of innocents - would you agree?
 
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  • #512


WhoWee said:
Rather than comment on your specific statements, I'll put one more file on the table - Somalia. Sometimes it's better to leash the mean dogs and feed them - rather than to let them run free at the expense of innocents - would you agree?

Rather than comment on your specific statements, I'll put one more file on the table - what's a bad dog? What made them bad? Could Caesar Milan help where the old hickory stick and leash fail?
 
  • #513


Nicodemus said:
Rather than comment on your specific statements, I'll put one more file on the table - what's a bad dog? What made them bad? Could Caesar Milan help where the old hickory stick and leash fail?

Somalia is an example of what happens when there is no structure and support.

http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/somalia/index.html

"Somalia has not had an effective central government since 1991, when the former government was toppled by clan militias that later turned on each other. For decades, generals, warlords and warrior types have reduced this once languid coastal country in Eastern Africa to rubble. Somalia remains a raging battle zone today, with jihadists pouring in from overseas, intent on toppling the transitional government."
 
  • #514


WhoWee said:
Somalia is an example of what happens when there is no structure and support.

http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/somalia/index.html

"Somalia has not had an effective central government since 1991, when the former government was toppled by clan militias that later turned on each other. For decades, generals, warlords and warrior types have reduced this once languid coastal country in Eastern Africa to rubble. Somalia remains a raging battle zone today, with jihadists pouring in from overseas, intent on toppling the transitional government."

Really? I think there are other examples that, while miserable for the populace, doesn't present a threat to international shipping. Egypt isn't one of those, but neither does it have the rather unfortunate history of Somalia. I'm not sure why you think that Egypt, with a massively well equipped and nearly autonomous military would ever fall to lawlessness, rather than at worst, a military junta.
 
  • #515


Nicodemus said:
Really? I think there are other examples that, while miserable for the populace, doesn't present a threat to international shipping. Egypt isn't one of those, but neither does it have the rather unfortunate history of Somalia. I'm not sure why you think that Egypt, with a massively well equipped and nearly autonomous military would ever fall to lawlessness, rather than at worst, a military junta.

What makes you believe the crowd in the streets wants the military to keep it's close ties to the US - or to even maintain such a large force? I still question whether the crowd in the streets actually speaks for the other 81 million people?
 
  • #516


WhoWee said:
What makes you believe the crowd in the streets wants the military to keep it's close ties to the US - or to even maintain such a large force? I still question whether the crowd in the streets actually speaks for the other 81 million people?

I don't believe any of that, but I have great faith in the Egyptian military's ability to control their country if they truly decide that's necessary. Only a fracturing of Egypt's military into warring states could lead to Somalia, and there is the public attention and pressure on Egypt... home of the Pyramids.

Somalia really went from crap to crappier to hellscape; Egypt is far more complex and advanced as a country, society, and has a much more stable history. I would believe in a foreign military occupation of Egypt before I would the world allows Egypt to descend into anarchy.

To address what you've said directly: I have no CLUE if the people on the streets represent 81 million, but that's not the point. If we made that same argument every time there's a revolution, or call to civil rights then anything short of a majority turnout would be pointless, right? Beyond that, there is no religious sector in Egypt that is more potent than its economic and military sector: I don't think Egypt, in whatever form, would be stupid enough to reject the help/hooks we've given/sunk-in.
 
  • #517


Nicodemus said:
I don't believe any of that, but I have great faith in the Egyptian military's ability to control their country if they truly decide that's necessary. Only a fracturing of Egypt's military into warring states could lead to Somalia, and there is the public attention and pressure on Egypt... home of the Pyramids.

Somalia really went from crap to crappier to hellscape; Egypt is far more complex and advanced as a country, society, and has a much more stable history. I would believe in a foreign military occupation of Egypt before I would the world allows Egypt to descend into anarchy.

To address what you've said directly: I have no CLUE if the people on the streets represent 81 million, but that's not the point. If we made that same argument every time there's a revolution, or call to civil rights then anything short of a majority turnout would be pointless, right? Beyond that, there is no religious sector in Egypt that is more potent than its economic and military sector: I don't think Egypt, in whatever form, would be stupid enough to reject the help/hooks we've given/sunk-in.


Please clarify -are you saying that you do not think the crowd in the streets wants the military to keep it's close ties to the US - or to even maintain such a large force?
 
  • #518


WhoWee said:
Please clarify -are you saying that you do not think the crowd in the streets wants the military to keep it's close ties to the US - or to even maintain such a large force?

I'm saying that I don't know what a crowd of tens of thousands wants, if they do beyond the desire to see an end to Mubarak et al. I don't think the crowd in Tahrir Square is the group that will ultimately form any new government (for the most part), and those who have come forth as possibilities (this google exec, ElBaradei) are not going to turn away over a billion a year.

In my limited experience, the Egyptian people love their military, and if that military took stewardship of the country in a move to the kinds of elections these crowds want... it would happen. Egypt is a very unique country in my experience; more western European in some ways than even the UAE, but also terribly poor. It is seen as the soul of the Arab world, and I think the people of Egypt believe and take pride in that.

We'll see if that leads to anything better, but I suspect neither free and democratic elections, or the doom of Somalia. I don't claim that either are not outside possibilities, but Egypt-as-Somalia doesn't keep up in the wee hours.
 
  • #519


I don't think Egypt, in whatever form, would be stupid enough to reject the help/hooks we've given/sunk-in.
You really don't "get it" (but nether do most of another 300 million people, so don't take it personally). That sort of patronizing arrogance from the US is exactly the reason WHY 82% of Egyptians are anti-American.

Why should a nation that has been an international political player for at least 5000 years, and survived the experience, take lessons from some bunch of upstarts who haven't even governed themselves for 250 years yet? Sure, they will take your money, if you are fool enough to hand it out for free, just like they are happy to fleece dumb tourists from any other country...

That 82% figure came from a US polling organization (Pew) by the way.
 
  • #520


AlephZero said:
You really don't "get it" (but nether do most of another 300 million people, so don't take it personally). That sort of patronizing arrogance from the US is exactly the reason WHY 82% of Egyptians are anti-American.

Why should a nation that has been an international political player for at least 5000 years, and survived the experience, take lessons from some bunch of upstarts who haven't even governed themselves for 250 years yet? Sure, they will take your money, if you are fool enough to hand it out for free, just like they are happy to fleece dumb tourists from any other country...

That 82% figure came from a US polling organization (Pew) by the way.

The only fool is someone who thinks that a nation gives money away without profound hooks. Do you understand the relationship between their military and ours, and the reliance on our training, not just equipment that is there?

Anyway, the answer is simeple: We'll pay you and then hold your feet to the fire, the other options don't bother to pay you. If you have a case to make against the extreme dependence of the Egyptian military on the US, I'm listening, but otherwise, who cares? I'd add that the Egypt and Egyptians of today has about as much in common with Egyptians 5000 years ago, as wolves do with dogs. BIG difference, despite the similar morphology.
 
  • #521


Lacy33 said:
Oh Mr. Avocado... Please give that lady in your art work there a jacket please!
Come on, now. That was the attitude that caused the U.S. to alter the design of one of the most beautiful coins of all times after only one year:

800px-Standing_Liberty_Quarter.jpg
 
  • #522


breaking news[/color]
 
  • #523


Lacy33 said:
breaking news[/color]
Which one?

Egypt Army Signals Steps to Take Power

Report: Army secretly torturing Egypt protesters
‎If it's a secret, why do I know about it?

Tehran vows to crush rally supporting Tunis, Cairo‎
 
  • #524


breaking news
 
  • #525


Lacy33 said:
breaking news

...an un-named US official is leaking that Mubarak will yield power to VP - the big news is the news people don't know what the news is...LOL
 
  • #526


It appears that the army is poised to keep control as Mubarak (and perhaps more of his party) steps down. If so, let's hope for a smooth transition.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110210/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_egypt;_ylt=AsnRGBLrPYO0Qn5dcwzI6AWs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTFoaWhpYmtsBHBvcwMxNwRzZWMDYWNjb3JkaW9uX3RvcF9zdG9yaWVzBHNsawNlZ3lwdGFybXl0YWs-
 
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  • #527


the irony of Mubarak leaving power on the anniversary of the Iranian Revolution of 1979...
 
  • #528


Greg Bernhardt said:
the irony of Mubarak leaving power on the anniversary of the Iranian Revolution of 1979...
Wow! I didn't catch that. Let's hope for a more faith-neutral result. Only 10% of Egyptians are Christians, but Christian and Muslim protesters alike have defended one another from attack during their respective prayer services. That's a reassuring pattern.
 
  • #529


VICTORY! VICTORY! VICTORY! VICTORY! VICTORY! VICTORY!
 
  • #530


i'm curbing my enthusiasm for now. Suleiman is old regime, and was set up as VP early in the situation. any success going forward depends entirely on what he allows to happen.
 
  • #531


DevilsAvocado said:
VICTORY! VICTORY! VICTORY! VICTORY! VICTORY! VICTORY!
I'm hoping this might be the beginning of something even larger. Corruption speaking that is. However I remember Kent State very vividly.
 
  • #532


Proton Soup said:
i'm curbing my enthusiasm for now. Suleiman is old regime, and was set up as VP early in the situation. any success going forward depends entirely on what he allows to happen.
I'm with you on this one. Cautious hopefulness (as opposed to optimism) is my mind-set right now. Too many party leaders have been raping the wealth of Egypt for too long to willingly give up their power. Still, turning out Mubarak (if it happens) would be a step in the right direction as long as the transitional government embraces honest democratic reforms and resists the temptation to impose permanent military rule.
 
  • #533
DNI Clapper said some interesting things about the Muslim Brotherhood during testimony. Please watch both videos.

First some info on Clapper:


Today he said:
http://nation.foxnews.com/culture/2011/02/10/obamas-intel-chief-muslim-brotherhood-non-violent-secular-group#

""The term 'Muslim Brotherhood'...is an umbrella term for a variety of movements, in the case of Egypt, a very heterogeneous group, largely secular, which has eschewed violence and has decried Al Qaeda as a perversion of Islam," Clapper said. "They have pursued social ends, a betterment of the political order in Egypt, et cetera...In other countries, there are also chapters or franchises of the Muslim Brotherhood, but there is no overarching agenda, particularly in pursuit of violence, at least internationally.""
 
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  • #534


Mubarak just refused to step down immediately (again). I have a feeling the people protesting in Tarhir Square won't like that very much.
 
  • #535


Please stay calm people. :frown:
 
  • #536


I’m completely stunned... "...until the elections in September..."

:bugeye: :bugeye: :bugeye: :bugeye: :bugeye: :bugeye: :bugeye:


This man needs help
 
  • #537


DevilsAvocado said:
I’m completely stunned... "...until the elections in September..."

:bugeye: :bugeye: :bugeye: :bugeye: :bugeye: :bugeye: :bugeye:


This man needs help
So, what was the agreement the news reported that was going to make the Egytian people happy?? What were the negotiations with the army?
 
  • #538


DevilsAvocado said:
I’m completely stunned... "...until the elections in September..."

:bugeye: :bugeye: :bugeye: :bugeye: :bugeye: :bugeye: :bugeye:


This man needs help

I know. The people there need to stay calm and I don't know what will help becasue he is babbling and no one is listening. The crowd is starting up.:frown:
 
  • #539


DevilsAvocado said:
I’m completely stunned... "...until the elections in September..."

:bugeye: :bugeye: :bugeye: :bugeye: :bugeye: :bugeye: :bugeye:


This man needs help
What I'd like to say would get me banned I'm afraid.
 
  • #540


Power to the People. It's not over until it's over. Look Out!
 

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