News What Exactly Is Happening In the Arab/Persian World?

[DevilsAvocado]

Translation - the US protestors had a right to protest and were protected by the laws of the US. The exception being when they resorted to violence and bombing of Government buildings - then they were subject to the criminal laws of the US - and again protected by their rights in the legal process - no gulags.

The protestors in "the Arabic world have been living under dictatorial suppression for decades" have no expectaion of protection under similar rights - many could face death.

Yes, but at the same time – not one Egypt protester has been killed by the military...

I must be stupid... I don’t understand your point...

 

[nismaratwork]

Translation - the US protestors had a right to protest and were protected by the laws of the US. The exception being when they resorted to violence and bombing of Government buildings - then they were subject to the criminal laws of the US - and again protected by their rights in the legal process - no gulags.

The protestors in "the Arabic world have been living under dictatorial suppression for decades" have no expectaion of protection under similar rights - many could face death.

I think you're underestimating the history of police action in the US... attack dogs, rubber bullets at PBR, and CS gas are a hard way to meet peaceful protests. See John Silber for instance, but you know what, a better example would be the civil rights movement. There, you had no recognition of rights, and an active push to keep them from legal recognition.

As for gulags, no we don't do that, we intern people during times of war, and even our "sweetness and light" president Obama isn't rushing to shut down Gitmo.

edit: That is one example... Stonewall might be another.

 

[WhoWee]

I think you're underestimating the history of police action in the US... attack dogs, rubber bullets at PBR, and CS gas are a hard way to meet peaceful protests. See John Silber for instance, but you know what, a better example would be the civil rights movement. There, you had no recognition of rights, and an active push to keep them from legal recognition.

As for gulags, no we don't do that, we intern people during times of war, and even our "sweetness and light" president Obama isn't rushing to shut down Gitmo.

edit: That is one example... Stonewall might be another.

Have it your way - the US is no different than anywhere else - go ahead and encourage people to protest in places where there is no expectation of protection by law. Afterall -it's their freedom at stake - maybe a few of them sould take one for the cause?

 

[nismaratwork]

Have it your way - the US is no different than anywhere else - go ahead and encourage people to protest in places where there is no expectation of protection by law. Afterall -it's their freedom at stake - maybe a few of them sould take one for the cause?

That's not my point... I'm just saying that chanting about how special we are isn't what gets us there, we actually need to ACT. In the end, someone always does exactly what you say, they die, anothe comes along, and eventually wins. It can be violent, peaceful, or anything in between, but it's inevitable.

You think that people under Ghaddafi don't realize they're risking their lives just by showing up at a protest? Not just their lives either, but their family, friends... Libya does not play. This is what happens when we want freedom for ourselves at the cost of freedom for others. When we help, we expect gratitude and forgiveness... sometimes that works (Japan, Germany), but often it ends badly.

We're just "UK-Junior" right now, left with the consequences of a the British Empire (and French, and others), and instead of learning from history, we are actually following in their footsteps. LITERALLY... to Afghanistan.

edit: a LOT will and are taking for "the cause", whatever that is. That's how it works here, and that's how it works elsewhere. We're just not dealing with nation-rending issues anymore, just nation-rending DRAMA.

 

[WhoWee]

"We" have "acted" - that is my point - what do "we" do now? These people don't have the protections afforded US citizens - this is not a group of people wanting a landlord to fix the heat (IMO). Words matter and actions have consequences (again, IMO).

How should President Obama now respond to these seekers of freedom? What is his message to the people in the street - today?

President Obama's Cairo speech:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/04/us/politics/04obama.text.html

"So I have known Islam on three continents before coming to the region where it was first revealed. That experience guides my conviction that partnership between America and Islam must be based on what Islam is, not what it isn't. And I consider it part of my responsibility as President of the United States to fight against negative stereotypes of Islam wherever they appear.

But that same principle must apply to Muslim perceptions of America. Just as Muslims do not fit a crude stereotype, America is not the crude stereotype of a self-interested empire. The United States has been one of the greatest sources of progress that the world has ever known. We were born out of revolution against an empire. We were founded upon the ideal that all are created equal, and we have shed blood and struggled for centuries to give meaning to those words – within our borders, and around the world. We are shaped by every culture, drawn from every end of the Earth, and dedicated to a simple concept: E pluribus unum: "Out of many, one."

Much has been made of the fact that an African-American with the name Barack Hussein Obama could be elected President. But my personal story is not so unique. The dream of opportunity for all people has not come true for everyone in America, but its promise exists for all who come to our shores – that includes nearly seven million American Muslims in our country today who enjoy incomes and education that are higher than average.

Moreover, freedom in America is indivisible from the freedom to practice one's religion. That is why there is a mosque in every state of our union, and over 1,200 mosques within our borders. That is why the U.S. government has gone to court to protect the right of women and girls to wear the hijab, and to punish those who would deny it.

So let there be no doubt: Islam is a part of America. And I believe that America holds within her the truth that regardless of race, religion, or station in life, all of us share common aspirations – to live in peace and security; to get an education and to work with dignity; to love our families, our communities, and our God. These things we share. This is the hope of all humanity.

Of course, recognizing our common humanity is only the beginning of our task. Words alone cannot meet the needs of our people. These needs will be met only if we act boldly in the years ahead; and if we understand that the challenges we face are shared, and our failure to meet them will hurt us all.

For we have learned from recent experience that when a financial system weakens in one country, prosperity is hurt everywhere. When a new flu infects one human being, all are at risk. When one nation pursues a nuclear weapon, the risk of nuclear attack rises for all nations. When violent extremists operate in one stretch of mountains, people are endangered across an ocean. And when innocents in Bosnia and Darfur are slaughtered, that is a stain on our collective conscience. That is what it means to share this world in the 21st century. That is the responsibility we have to one another as human beings.

This is a difficult responsibility to embrace. For human history has often been a record of nations and tribes subjugating one another to serve their own interests. Yet in this new age, such attitudes are self-defeating. Given our interdependence, any world order that elevates one nation or group of people over another will inevitably fail. So whatever we think of the past, we must not be prisoners of it. Our problems must be dealt with through partnership; progress must be shared."

 

[nismaratwork]

"We" have "acted" - that is my point - what do "we" do now? These people don't have the protections afforded US citizens - this is not a group of people wanting a landlord to fix the heat (IMO). Words matter and actions have consequences (again, IMO).

In the context you present, given the regimes... it's fight or die. You're right, "Alea iacta est", "The die has been cast". I think we have an obligation to protect people that we encourage to protest, and on the other hand have provided the means of supressing that protest.

It will take more than a pretty speak, I think we both agree on that, to make it clear that we're not playing both sides againt the middle.

 

[WhoWee]

In the context you present, given the regimes... it's fight or die. You're right, "Alea iacta est", "The die has been cast". I think we have an obligation to protect people that we encourage to protest, and on the other hand have provided the means of supressing that protest.

It will take more than a pretty speak, I think we both agree on that, to make it clear that we're not playing both sides againt the middle.

Dangerous game - even with a plan.

 

[nismaratwork]

Dangerous game - even with a plan.

Yep, and AFAIK it's one we always lose, or win with serious blowback. Still... what else can be done once, as you say, these moves have been made?

If you're saying, did Obama say the right things... no, I think this has been his greatest failing in office.

 

[nismaratwork]

CNN's Arwa Damon, on the scene in Bahrain is reporting that right now, shots (possibly live rounds) are being fired into peaceful demonstrators. She's saying that as the protestors approached, the riot police too a knee (2 rank shooting) and opened fire.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Is this developing into an uncontrollable madness mayhem... BAHRAIN, LIBYA, JORDAN, YEMEN, EGYPT, IRAN, IRAQ, SENEGAL, UGANDA ... ?

http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=sv&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fsvt.se%2F2.58360%2F1.2330693%2Futskriftsvanligt_format%3Fprinterfriendly%3Dtrue&act=url"

CNN: 20 KILLED IN LIBYA

(I heard about "tanks" and "African mercenaries"...? )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FXyWI0yG2g

 

[WhoWee]

The UN has weighed in - not sure anyone is listening though?

http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=44432

"In a rare departure from his usual caution, UN chief Ban Ki-moon Thursday slammed moves to quell a wave of anti-government protests in Arab nations urging "bold reforms, not repression."

"Sustainable progress can take roots in places where people are empowered, where governments are responsive, where growth is inclusive," Ban told a press conference at the United Nations.

"In a number of countries transitions have been initiated or reforms have been promised. It is crucial that leaders deliver on those promises," he added.

The unrest has spread to other nations since Tunisia deposed its long time ruler last month and Egypt's veteran president Hosni Mubarak stood down last week, both as a result of people power revolts.

"I will say it once again: the situation calls for bold reforms, not repression," Ban said."

 

[nismaratwork]

The UN has weighed in - not sure anyone is listening though?

http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=44432

"In a rare departure from his usual caution, UN chief Ban Ki-moon Thursday slammed moves to quell a wave of anti-government protests in Arab nations urging "bold reforms, not repression."

"Sustainable progress can take roots in places where people are empowered, where governments are responsive, where growth is inclusive," Ban told a press conference at the United Nations.

"In a number of countries transitions have been initiated or reforms have been promised. It is crucial that leaders deliver on those promises," he added.

The unrest has spread to other nations since Tunisia deposed its long time ruler last month and Egypt's veteran president Hosni Mubarak stood down last week, both as a result of people power revolts.

"I will say it once again: the situation calls for bold reforms, not repression," Ban said."

I don't even kow if there's anyone who can afford to listen. This is rapidly turning into something that is going to require intervention to secure the Suez. Iran challenging the largest Sunni state, and an uprising in the other major Shiite nation? Israel must be field-stripping their guns right now... I know I would be.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Yes and the two Iranian warships have passed through the Suez Canal... heading to...?

 

[WhoWee]

I don't even kow if there's anyone who can afford to listen. This is rapidly turning into something that is going to require intervention to secure the Suez. Iran challenging the largest Sunni state, and an uprising in the other major Shiite nation? Israel must be field-stripping their guns right now... I know I would be.

Stepping back objectively, the Suez might be the only secureable interest - "super power" stuff- everything else might be considered a "local matter". This is the UN's big moment - isn't it?

 

[nismaratwork]

Stepping back objectively, the Suez might be the only secureable interest - "super power" stuff- everything else might be considered a "local matter". This is the UN's big moment - isn't it?

Agreed, but only in theory; in practice I think we'd both agree that they'd have their... tushies... handed to them.

 

[nismaratwork]

Yes and the two Iranian warships have passed through the Suez Canal... heading to...?

My guess? Nowhere important now. They now have a presence in the region, and they've made their first "point" with the 'new' Egyptian ruling body.

edit:

CNN video: http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/meast/02/18/bahrain.protests/index.html?hpt=T2
As well, CNN reports, that 20 have been killed, and 200 more wounded during protests in Libya (Benghazi).
There is also unrest in Kuwait... and damn it I have friends there. The one I've talked to today was unaffected, but the tension is growing between the populace, and the huge amount of imported labor.

 

[Galteeth]

This might have come up in the thread before, but I think the key to all of this is information technology. Historically, it seems that new means of distributing information lead to changes in the political and social order. The printing press and glasnost in the USSR are the first examples that come to mine. It seems the internet has sparked a new way for young people in these countries to exchange and receive information.

Question: I have heard some talk that young people constitute a silent majority in these countries (Although many i saw in protest videos were not "young people". Are they a literal majority? If so, what accounts for these demographics?

 

[Proton Soup]

median age in egypt is 24: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Egypt#Median_Age

in other news, US asserts its right to oversee the colonization of palestinian territories

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/mobile/?type=story&id=2014266562&st_app=ip_news_lite&st_ver=1.2

Updated Friday, February 18, 2011 at 07:16 PM
U.S. vetoes U.N. resolution on Israeli settlements
By EDITH M. LEDERER
Associated Press

The United States vetoed a U.N. resolution Friday that would have condemned "illegal" Israeli settlements and demanded an immediate halt to all settlement building, a move certain to anger Arab countries and Palestinian supporters around the world.

The 14 other Security Council members voted in favor of the resolution, reflecting the wide support for the Palestinian-backed draft which had over 100 co-sponsors.

U.S. Ambassador Susan Rice said the United States agrees with the rest of the council and the wider world "about the folly and illegitimacy of continued Israeli settlement activity." But she said the U.S. believes "it is unwise" for the U.N.'s most powerful body to attempt to resolve key issues between the Israelis and Palestinians.

The vote put President Barack Obama in a difficult position, both internationally and domestically.
...

you don't say

 

[mugaliens]

median age in egypt is 24: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Egypt#Median_Age

in other news, US asserts its right to oversee the colonization of palestinian territories

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/mobile/?type=story&id=2014266562&st_app=ip_news_lite&st_ver=1.2

you don't say

And good for US! Good for the U.S., too. A simple search on "criticisms of the United Nations" reveals countless detailed complaints; many of them are valid. It's good thing for the key member nations to raise the "no" flag as a check on UN aspirations.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

I’m speechless.

*** Warning! Graphic Video! ***

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ztNrUlIp-I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRhyWovF2us

Rough Translation: "We were going there, chanting 'Peaceful, peaceful,' we even raised our hands." (Other person says, "We even had flowers.") "They were not kidding. They had machine guns, not rifles or hand weapons, literally machine guns with tripods, and they opened fire. People ran away! A person in front me instantly died after a head shot, I tried to grab him and carry him away, I was in complete state of shock."

 

[Evo]

The situation in Libya is horrible.

Moammar Gadhafi's forces fired on mourners leaving a funeral for protesters Saturday in the eastern city of Benghazi, killing at least 15 people and wounding scores more as the regime tried to squelch calls for an end to the ruler's 42-year grip on power.

Libyan protesters were back on the street for the fifth straight day, but Gadhafi has taken a hard line toward the dissent that has ripped through the Middle East and swept him up with it. Government forces also wiped out a protest encampment and clamped down on Internet service throughout Libya

Snipers fired on thousands of people gathered in Benghazi, a focal point of the unrest, to mourn 35 protesters who were shot on Friday, a hospital official said.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110219/ap_on_re_af/af_libya_protests

 

[nismaratwork]

And good for US! Good for the U.S., too. A simple search on "criticisms of the United Nations" reveals countless detailed complaints; many of them are valid. It's good thing for the key member nations to raise the "no" flag as a check on UN aspirations.

Man I'm glad you believe you that too.

Evo: It's going to get MUCH worse; Ghaddafi is utterly ruthless, a monster, and he has an entire bedouin community willing to charge in and kill pretty much ANYONE. He can have mercanry forces do it, and frankly I'm shocked that the military in Benghazi hasn't massacred the people yet. It sounds bad, but sniping a crowd is a warning in Libya... you'll know when it's gone TRULY wrong when you start to see submachine guns... that's about wading into a crowd and cutting it down, not a force protection or regional contrl.

AFAICT, as long as he holds Al 'Azīzīyah and Tripoli, he can just bomb his own people... I don't believe he cares. He also seems willing to outrage any nation to hold his own... doubtless he realizes that outside of Libya and his power-structure, he's a dead man.

DA: That's sad to watch, but thank you for posting it.

 

[rootX]

AFAICT, as long as he holds Al 'Azīzīyah and Tripoli, he can just bomb his own people... I don't believe he cares. He also seems willing to outrage any nation to hold his own... doubtless he realizes that outside of Libya and his power-structure, he's a dead man.

Whatever it takes to stabilize that place. I don't believe Middle East is ready for things like democracy. Even if the rulers are overthrown that is not going to get people what they are protesting about i.e. better living conditions. However, it might make Middle East more unstable.

 

[nismaratwork]

Whatever it takes to stabilize that place. I don't believe Middle East is ready for things like democracy. Even if the rulers are overthrown that is not going to get people what they are protesting about i.e. better living conditions. However, it might make Middle East more unstable.

Generally I'd agree with you, but Libya... I can be a very cold person, but Libya is hell for its people. I can't imagine something worse than Ghaddafi emerging... just another broken African nation, which Libya already is.

 

[Gokul43201]

It's good thing for the key member nations to raise the "no" flag as a check on UN aspirations.

I couldn't agree more wholeheartedly. In fact, I'm immensely disappointed that the US hasn't been more proactive with raising the "no" flag when ...
... the UN was condemning Gaddafi's calls for jihad against Switzerland, or when
... the UN was condemning al Bashir for his ravages against the Southern Sudanese, or when
... the UN was condemning Kim Jong Il's attacks on the South, or when
... the UN was condemning Saddam for his invasion of Kuwait ...
... you know, just as a check on UN aspirations.

 

[nismaratwork]

I couldn't agree more wholeheartedly. In fact, I'm immensely disappointed that the US hasn't been more proactive with raising the "no" flag when ...
... the UN was condemning Gaddafi's calls for jihad against Switzerland, or when
... the UN was condemning al Bashir for his ravages against the Southern Sudanese, or when
... the UN was condemning Kim Jong Il's attacks on the South, or when
... the UN was condemning Saddam for his invasion of Kuwait ...
... you know, just as a check on UN aspirations.

Hmmmm... on the other hand this isn't meant to be fair or kind... it's a tool like any other.

 

[Galteeth]

Whatever it takes to stabilize that place. I don't believe Middle East is ready for things like democracy. Even if the rulers are overthrown that is not going to get people what they are protesting about i.e. better living conditions. However, it might make Middle East more unstable.

Wasn't the whole point of the Iraq intervention to "bring democracy to the middle east"?

I think better living conditions is obviously what they desire, but it also seems to be about having a say in their governments. And contrary to what many western talking heads are claiming, I have not seen any protestors calling for sharia law or a theocracy.

 

[Proton Soup]

bahrain is home to the US Fifth Fleet and naval centcom
http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/WTARC/2007/me_gulf_08_01.asp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Support_Activity_Bahrain

the shootings above took place at Pearl Roundabout, which is on the other side of Manama relative to the US base and embassy.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...family-orders-army-to-turn-on-the-people.html

 

[nismaratwork]

bahrain is home to the US Fifth Fleet and naval centcom
http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/WTARC/2007/me_gulf_08_01.asp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Support_Activity_Bahrain

the shootings above took place at Pearl Roundabout, which is on the other side of Manama relative to the US base and embassy.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...family-orders-army-to-turn-on-the-people.html

Yeah... it really makes one proud to be American. We cover the massacres, we just don't do anything.

Of course, except for those fine white Christians in Bosnia (fighting against Muslims I'd add), we seem content to let everyone else slaughter each other. I think the last few decades have made it very clear that our foreign policy is a clenched fist and a rude gesture.

 

[nismaratwork]

I'm transcribing the following from a CNN interview with a Libyan woman in Benghazi, Libya.

Please help us we have no guns Obama please help us we do nothing! 'Cause I am afraid. We have not freedom here, no freedom... everything is sad. The soldiers, ah go from the camp, they say 'We are with you, we are with you,' we, uh we we believe them! Some people believe them, and after that *begins to cry* they start shooting the people! Why? *sobbing* Why?! Why they lie? We are afraid.

 

[nismaratwork]

Now this is an interesting and unexpected development:
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/meast/02/19/bahrain.protests/index.html?hpt=T1

This is sure to end well...

Manama, Bahrain (CNN) -- Thousands of joyous Bahrainis retook a major square in the heart of the island nation's capital Saturday -- a dramatic turn of events two days after security forces ousted demonstrators from the spot in a deadly attack.

The sight of citizens streaming into Pearl Roundabout came as the Bahrain royal family made moves designed to end a turbulent week of unrest.

Crown Prince Salman ordered the removal of the military from the Pearl Roundabout, a top demand by opposition forces, and told CNN's Nic Robertson that citizens would be permitted stay in the spot without fear.

Bahrain's military said it "successfully completed" its mission of "safeguarding vital areas in the center of the capital" and withdrew to its camps. Police were placed in charge but withdrew from the roundabout on the heels of the military.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

... My mother was born and raised in Algeria, my uncle was kidnapped in Libya and held as a political prisoner,

The situation in Libya is horrible.

Do you still have relatives there??

 

[DevilsAvocado]

My guess? Nowhere important now.

Seems like they have a hard time deciding if they are going to Syria for training, or chasing Somali pirates...

http://articles.cnn.com/2011-02-18/world/egypt.iran.warships_1_suez-canal-iranian-warships-egypt?_s=PM:WORLD"

The Alvand

The Kharg

They now have a presence in the region, and they've made their first "point" with the 'new' Egyptian ruling body.

 

[nismaratwork]

Best cartoon ever.

 

[Evo]

Do you still have relatives there??

No, thank goodness.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Best cartoon ever.

(better smile while we can... )

 

[DevilsAvocado]

No, thank goodness.

Phew!

 

[mugaliens]

This is sure to end well...

Crown Prince Salman ordered the removal of the military from the Pearl Roundabout, a top demand by opposition forces, and told CNN's Nic Robertson that citizens would be permitted stay in the spot without fear.

Sounds like a concession to me. Would you rather he keep beating them down?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a key difference between Bahrain and Egypt is that in Bahrain we don't have two factions of civilians warring against one another as we did with the anti-Mubarek and pro-Mubarek supporters in Egypt.

Salman offered his condolences, cautioned citizens and security forces to restrain themselves, and said the country wants a nation where neither Sunni or Shiites are favored.

Good luck! Until everyone gives up their ties to Sunni or Shiite versions of Islam, it's not going to happen. We have a two-party system here in the US, although it falls more along strictly political, rather than religious lines. To date, while our Presidents have run the gamut of Protestant affiliations and no affiliations, we've only had one Catholic president: John F. Kennedy.

 

[Gokul43201]

Proton Soup, are you there? This video shows exactly my 'worries'. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayaan_Hirsi_Ali" has personal experiences from MB and Islam. Yes, maybe she is a (right-wing?) "scarecrow" lady, but it’s risky to ignore her experiences completely...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D57a8j0P3Ss

It's not clear to me what exactly Hirsi Ali is proposing (but as is typical of a rapid-fire interview, I don't think there was quite enough time for her to explain herself at length), though I believe I get the gist of it. But if you listen carefully, you have, for instance...

Ayaan Hirsi Ali (4:08): "What we need to do is stop worrying about the Muslim Brotherhood."

Here's another opinion on the MB, from Queen Noor: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7QE4_ew90w&feature=relmfu Is it surprising that a Jordanian has a significantly different opinion of the MB than a Kenyan? I don't think so. Why is it that you no longer seem to care about that specific line from the wiki page on the MB that you chose to emphasize upthread?

We could go ad nauseum with this, but I doubt that a back-and-forth of personal opinions serves any particularly useful purpose.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

you don't say

No more http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BlqLwCKkeY" I guess...

bahrain is home to the US Fifth Fleet and naval centcom ... the shootings above took place at Pearl Roundabout, which is on the other side of Manama relative to the US base and embassy.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&sou....220212,50.569983&spn=0.050434,0.056219&z=14"

 

[DevilsAvocado]

emphasis mine

... Correct me if I'm wrong, but a key difference between Bahrain and Egypt is that in Bahrain we don't have two factions of civilians warring against one another as we did with the anti-Mubarek and pro-Mubarek supporters in Egypt.

Civilians??

Cut down on the FOX News and call your friend Obama instead...

 

[Gokul43201]

The point is, Gokul:
You speak of "so many factors" that you, totally witout evidence, consider..significant.
They might just be..noise, that must be filtered away in order to get a better picture.

And you've decided that they are noise, even without examining them?

Alexandrine Copts MIGHT have a slighter bleaker view than you on the probable evolution in Egypt than you do, due to rather recent events.

I haven't expressed an opinion on such a probability, so this has nothing to do with anything I've said here.

Much worse than in, for example, Oman.

Hooray, we found one authoritarian state in the ME with better womens' rights than Bangladesh (assuming this is true). That totally proves your point!

 

[nismaratwork]

Sounds like a concession to me. Would you rather he keep beating them down?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a key difference between Bahrain and Egypt is that in Bahrain we don't have two factions of civilians warring against one another as we did with the anti-Mubarek and pro-Mubarek supporters in Egypt.



Good luck! Until everyone gives up their ties to Sunni or Shiite versions of Islam, it's not going to happen. We have a two-party system here in the US, although it falls more along strictly political, rather than religious lines. To date, while our Presidents have run the gamut of Protestant affiliations and no affiliations, we've only had one Catholic president: John F. Kennedy.

It may be a concession, but it's a very odd one to make, don't you think? They can't honestly believe that this will do anything except embolden already enraged protesters. If this had been done instead of shooting them, maybe, but at this point I'm guessing this is more about regrouping. After all, you can much more easily take an occupied square than defend it. This is a good default position for a regime considering what next steps to take.

Do keep in mind that Saudi Arabi would likely annex Bahrain before they allowed what they see (and may well be) a Shiite uprising. From the perspective of the west, arab nations, europe AND asia, it would be seen as a risk vis a vis Iran.

As for the Kennedy connection, I don't understand your point, but I do agree that the Sunni/Shiite divide is going NOWHERE. This is not a disagreement that is new, and AFAIK, neither side has any intention of willingly backing down.

 

[nismaratwork]

And you've decided that they are noise, even without examining them?

I haven't expressed an opinion on such a probability, so this has nothing to do with anything I've said here.

Hooray, we found one authoritarian state in the ME with better womens' rights than Bangladesh (assuming this is true). That totally proves your point!

re bold: If I ever have a signiture, may I use that? I consider that accurate, and priceless.

 

[Gokul43201]

Not the wisest thing I've posted here - I could have easily done without the nastiness.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

It's not clear to me what exactly Hirsi Ali is proposing (but as is typical of a rapid-fire interview, I don't think there was quite enough time for her to explain herself at length), though I believe I get the gist of it. But if you listen carefully, you have, for instance...

Ayaan Hirsi Ali (4:08): "What we need to do is stop worrying about the Muslim Brotherhood."

Ehhh... if you listen real carefully, in the next sentence it’s perfectly clear what Ayaan Hirsi propose:

"I hope that the Egypt constitution has to be rewritten in such a way that there are safeguards against a Sharia state, or against the next autocracy."​

I agree 100% with this intelligent woman! Of course MB should be allowed in the Egyptian society and politics! That’s not the question!

The question is: Should the Egyptians roll out the "Red Carpet" for the next autocracy, or not?

(If MB is not interested in a Sharia autocracy, as you claim, this shouldn’t be a problem, right?? )

 

[nismaratwork]

Not the wisest thing I've posted here - I could have easily done without the nastiness.

Fair enough... although that's probably what attracted me to it. Such a clean cut deserves recognition, in this, "Best of all possible worlds."

 

[Gokul43201]

Ehhh... if you listen real carefully, in the next sentence it’s perfectly clear what Ayaan Hirsi propose:

"I hope that the Egypt constitution has to be rewritten in such a way that there are safeguards against a Sharia state, or against the next autocracy."​

I agree 100% with this intelligent woman!

So tell me exactly what it means to "hope" that something "has to be" a certain way? Is this a proposal for being passive, by hoping? Or a proposal to get involved and force an outcome that "has to be"? I wouldn't think you could have it both ways. But, as I mentioned earlier, I suppose Hirsi Ali would have been able to explain her proposal better were there more time in the interview.

Of course MB should be allowed in the Egyptian society and politics! That’s not the question!

I didn't think that was the issue. I thought the issue was one of whether or not such inclusion warranted certain levels of fear and worry.

The question is: Should the Egyptians roll out the "Red Carpet" for the next autocracy, or not?

I don't see how that is the question either.

(If MB is not interested in a Sharia autocracy, as you claim, this shouldn’t be a problem, right?? )

I consider this not relevant to the issue I was addressing (edit: actually, that's not even true; I insist that it does not follow logically), but furthermore, I never actually made that point, to my recollection (if I did, and you show me where, I'd be happy to rewrite it more carefully).

 

[DevilsAvocado]

This might have come up in the thread before, but I think the key to all of this is information technology. Historically, it seems that new means of distributing information lead to changes in the political and social order. The printing press and glasnost in the USSR are the first examples that come to mine. It seems the internet has sparked a new way for young people in these countries to exchange and receive information.

You’ve got it!

The worst enemy for dictators, religious or not, is information. That’s why internet was/is taken down in both Egypt and Iran. The best friend for Hitler and his disciples was/is twisted propaganda.

I think better living conditions is obviously what they desire, but it also seems to be about having a say in their governments.

I bet my $ on the later...

And contrary to what many western talking heads are claiming, I have not seen any protestors calling for sharia law or a theocracy.

How about these two western talking heads (Irish & U.S.)?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmLsoyfuOTk

 

[DevilsAvocado]

I don't see how that is the question either.

I understand, but to me this is the simplest question in the world, i.e.:

Are you for or against a safeguard against a Sharia autocracy in the new Egypt constitution?

Yes or No


(Not that our private opinions here on PF matter that much, but it’s always nice to know who you’re talking to. )