News What Exactly Is Happening In the Arab/Persian World?

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Protests in Egypt have escalated into violence, with reports of protesters being beaten and arrested, including journalists. The unrest is characterized as significant but not an outright uprising, contrasting with the recent events in Tunisia. Rumors suggest that President Mubarak's family may have fled the country, raising concerns about potential instability. As protests continue, there are fears that the situation could worsen, particularly with a planned massive demonstration. The emergence of a leaderless youth movement is seen as a critical factor in challenging Mubarak's long-standing regime.
  • #541


"I will not separate myself from the soil until I am buried underneath." - Hosni Mubarak

Why do I get the feeling that a lot of people would be fine with burying him right now?
 
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  • #542


WhoWee said:
""The term 'Muslim Brotherhood'...is an umbrella term for a variety of movements, in the case of Egypt, a very heterogeneous group, largely secular, which has eschewed violence and has decried Al Qaeda as a perversion of Islam," Clapper said. "They have pursued social ends, a betterment of the political order in Egypt, et cetera...In other countries, there are also chapters or franchises of the Muslim Brotherhood, but there is no overarching agenda, particularly in pursuit of violence, at least internationally.""
I think this is not terribly inaccurate - perhaps stated with a little more confidence than would be conveyed in internal communications. Also, the "largely secular" part could be a bit of a fudge. I've listened to a couple of Egypt experts in interviews over the past few weeks, and the consensus seems to be that the make up of the MB is somewhat unknown. My understanding is that there is believed to be at least a significant secular minority and a significant radical minority, but much more than that is hard to tell, and where exactly the centers of power are within that spectrum is harder still to determine.

This breadth of ideology, from the seemigly secular to the seemingly radical, is illustrated pretty well, for instance, in the following two recent stories:

1. http://www.tehrantimes.com/index_View.asp?code=235393
A senior member of Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood has expressed gratitude to the Leader of the Islamic Revolution Ayatollah Seyyed Ali Khamenei for his support of the Egyptian revolution.

Kamal al-Halbavi made the remark in an interview with the state-funded BBC Persian on Sunday night.

Halbavi further expressed hope that Egypt would have “a good government, like the Iranian government, and a good president like Mr. Ahmadinejad, who is very brave.”

2. http://www.eurasiareview.com/world-news/africa/muslim-brotherhood-rejects-khamenei-calls-for-iran-style-islamic-state-05022011/
Egypt’s main opposition party, the Muslim Brotherhood, have rejected calls by Iran’s Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei for an Islamic Revolution similar to the Iranian revolution of 1979 to be established in Egypt.

“The MB regards the revolution as the Egyptian People’s Revolution not an Islamic Revolution” said a statement published on the Muslim Brotherhood’s official website just hours after Khamenei’s remarks on Friday, while “asserting that the Egyptian People’s Revolution includes Muslims, Christians, from all sects and political.”

On Friday and during Friday prayers in Tehran, Iran’s supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei quickly seized the opportunity to exploit the Egyptian uprising and called for an Islamic state to be installed in Egypt. Khamenei said that the recent wave of Arab revolts was an “earthquake” triggered by the Islamic Revolution in 1979.
 
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  • #543


Gokul43201 said:
I think this is not terribly inaccurate - perhaps stated with a little more confidence than would be conveyed in internal communications. Also, the "largely secular" part could be a bit of a fudge. I've listened to a couple of Egypt experts in interviews over the past few weeks, and the consensus seems to be that the make up of the MB is somewhat unknown. My understanding is that there is believed to be at least a significant secular minority and a significant radical minority, but much more than that is hard to tell, and where exactly the centers of power are within that spectrum is harder still to determine.

This breadth of ideology, from the seemigly secular to the seemingly radical, is illustrated pretty well, for instance, in the following two recent stories:

1. http://www.tehrantimes.com/index_View.asp?code=235393

2. http://www.eurasiareview.com/world-news/africa/muslim-brotherhood-rejects-khamenei-calls-for-iran-style-islamic-state-05022011/

If you haven't done so already, please watch the video clip of Clapper's testimony.
 
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  • #544


Evo said:
So, what was the agreement the news reported that was going to make the Egytian people happy?? What were the negotiations with the army?

Unless there was severe errors in the translation, this speech will go to history as the most "out of touch" ever. He has "one version of reality" that must be surreal too millions of Egyptians (and large part of the world).

High official said that he would step down, CIA was saying the same thing, Obama talked (and looked) like this was now over... and his speech was shown on the official Egypt channel...


... the first speech in world history sent from "another planet" ... ? :bugeye: :bugeye: :bugeye:
 
  • #545


Lacy33 said:
I know. The people there need to stay calm and I don't know what will help becasue he is babbling and no one is listening. The crowd is starting up.:frown:

Agree, this is a catastrophe.
 
  • #547


dlgoff said:
What I'd like to say would get me banned I'm afraid.

Yup.
 
  • #548


Wouldn't now be the time to eliminate U.S. aid to turn the table on Mubarak? Tell Egypt we'll consider giving aid again if we think you worthy?
 
  • #549
WhoWee said:
If you haven't done so already, please watch the video clip of Clapper's testimony.

http://nation.foxnews.com/culture/2011/02/10/obamas-intel-chief-muslim-brotherhood-non-violent-secular-group

MB's public statements are against al qaeda

http://www.ikhwanweb.com/articles.php?pid=86
 
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  • #550
  • #551


dlgoff said:
Wouldn't now be the time to eliminate U.S. aid to turn the table on Mubarak? Tell Egypt we'll consider giving aid again if we think you worthy?

I’ve been thinking the same for some time. Problem: The King of Saudi Arabia, Abdullah bin Abdul-Aziz has promised to "fill the gap". He doesn’t have any spare parts to M1 Abrams and F-16, but he has $$$$$.

Worst scenario: Mubarak and King Abdullah decides to 'change' Egypt to 'satisfy' the Muslim Brotherhood... without involvement of U.S.


EDIT:
VP is also transmitting from another planet.
 
  • #552


DevilsAvocado said:
I’ve been thinking the same for some time. Problem: The King of Saudi Arabia, Abdullah bin Abdul-Aziz has promised to "fill the gap". He doesn’t have any spare parts to M1 Abrams and F-16, but he has $$$$$.

Worst scenario: Mubarak and King Abdullah decides to 'change' Egypt to 'satisfy' the Muslim Brotherhood... without involvement of U.S.


EDIT:
VP is also transmitting from another planet.

If I faint within the next hour, it's Your fault. :bugeye:
 
  • #553


DevilsAvocado said:
I’ve been thinking the same for some time. Problem: The King of Saudi Arabia, Abdullah bin Abdul-Aziz has promised to "fill the gap". He doesn’t have any spare parts to M1 Abrams and F-16, but he has $$$$$.

Worst scenario: Mubarak and King Abdullah decides to 'change' Egypt to 'satisfy' the Muslim Brotherhood... without involvement of U.S.


EDIT:
VP is also transmitting from another planet.

i'm not sure why the Muslim Brotherhood keeps coming up as a bogeyman. lots of FUD is delivered, but no real evidence other than the fact that they've got "muslim" in their name.
 
  • #554


Wolfe Blitzer to man on phone.. "So who is in charge of Egypt right now.?"
Man on phone (ambassader) " The president who has given all power to the VP!" :smile: :bugeye: :cry:

please pardon sp.
 
  • #555


Proton Soup said:
i'm not sure why the Muslim Brotherhood keeps coming up as a bogeyman. lots of FUD is delivered, but no real evidence other than the fact that they've got "muslim" in their name.

This might be why?:
http://middleeast.about.com/od/egypt/a/me081006a.htm

"The attackers included four enlisted men, an army major and a lieutenant. The major and two enlisted men were killed in the swarm around the reviewing stand, once other members of the military realized what was taking place. The rest were arrested. The attackers would eventually come to be identified as Islamist nationalists associated with the Muslim Brotherhood under the name of Islamic Jihad. "
 
  • #556


Is anyone else trying to wrap loose brains around this slippery stuff?
'He is but he isn't everything except he remains in absoulte power but he gave everything else to his best friend and VP what the man was already doing anyway.' :rolleyes:
 
  • #557


WhoWee said:
This might be why?:
http://middleeast.about.com/od/egypt/a/me081006a.htm

"The attackers included four enlisted men, an army major and a lieutenant. The major and two enlisted men were killed in the swarm around the reviewing stand, once other members of the military realized what was taking place. The rest were arrested. The attackers would eventually come to be identified as Islamist nationalists associated with the Muslim Brotherhood under the name of Islamic Jihad. "

so an "offshoot"? is that like a breakaway republic?

i still don't see them rising even to the malevolence of the CIA.
 
  • #558


Proton Soup said:
so an "offshoot"? is that like a breakaway republic?

i still don't see them rising even to the malevolence of the CIA.

I find that comment interesting - in the context of this thread. Please listen to the first recording I posted earlier of DNI Clapper answering Senator Bond's questions during his confirmation hearings:



Clapper said he would have authority to override the CIA Director.
 
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  • #559


Lacy33 said:
"So who is in charge of Egypt right now?"
"The president who has given all power to the VP!"

Lacy33 said:
Is anyone else trying to wrap loose brains around this slippery stuff?


Slippery is the word, and I would add "tragicomic mumbarak-jumbo". If this wasn’t dead serious, you would guess that those two first sentences came directly from Monty Python...
 
  • #560


WhoWee said:
If you haven't done so already, please watch the video clip of Clapper's testimony.
I did - I watched both videos. What am I missing?

whowee said:
Clapper said he would have authority to override the CIA Director.
Is there something wrong with that statement? I'm not aware of the intricacies, but I thought DCI reported to DNI.
 
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  • #561


WhoWee said:
This might be why?:
...
''The attackers would eventually come to be identified as Islamist nationalists associated with the Muslim Brotherhood under the name of Islamic Jihad. "

More FUD, aimed at the ignorant west. By definition, every Islamist on the planet is "associated". Look up the meaning of the Arabic word "ummah".

This is no more significant than claiming the Arizona shooter was "associated with opposition Republicans under the name of the Tea Party" in the US.
 
  • #562


DevilsAvocado said:
I know. The people there need to stay calm and I don't know what will help becasue he is babbling and no one is listening. The crowd is starting up.
Agree, this is a catastrophe.

It's not a catastrophe yet. But it will turn into one if some Western goons decide they know how to end it better than the Egyptians do, for example this guy:

0126: Larry Korb of the liberal Center for American Progress think tank in Washington tells the BBC the transition has begun: "Whether it's going to be smooth or not I think is the key issue. The [Obama] administration has finally decided Mubarak's got to go, we need a Democratic Egypt, and we're willing to face the consequences."

Source: BBC News website - my emphasis.
 
  • #563


Proton Soup said:
i'm not sure why the Muslim Brotherhood keeps coming up as a bogeyman. lots of FUD is delivered, but no real evidence other than the fact that they've got "muslim" in their name.

I agree in most you say, and you may be right again, but personally I see some real "troubling stuff" in MB.

Example: Go to http://www.ikhwanweb.com/links.php" with this subtitle:
"Brotherhood phobia" ... Dialectics America and the Zionists against the Muslim Brotherhood​

So what comes first – the chicken or the egg? This is just a "Brotherhood phobia"...??

Well, let’s stick to facts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood"

Muslim Brotherhood
...
The MB is a movement, not a political party, but members have created political parties in several countries, such as the Islamic Action Front in Jordan and Hamas in Gaza and the West Bank. These parties are staffed by Brotherhood members but kept independent from the MB to some degree, unlike Hizb ut-Tahrir which is highly centralized.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hizb_ut-Tahrir"

Hizb ut-Tahrir

Hizb ut-Tahrir is an international pan-Islamic political organisation whose goal is for all Muslim countries to unify as an Islamic state or caliphate ruled by Islamic law and with a caliph head of state elected by Muslims.



I’m not an American or Zionist, but this scare the sh*t out of me, and I can understand if people in Israel get much more worried than me... I wouldn’t call that a "phobia" of any kind... it looks like reality to me...

Do I need to say that Hamas has been explicit in its Holocaust Denial. (! :O)

A war between Israel and Hamas backed up by an "Islamic Egypt Caliphate" with 500,000 active personnel 500,000 reserve is the last thing the world needs.

I have several times heard representatives from MB answering the question: Would you make Egypt an Islamic state and implement Sharia laws?
– Yes, but only if that’s what the people want.​

Sharia laws would mean the brutal end of any seed of a real democracy, and on top of that – between 5 to 15 million native Egyptian Christians (Copts) would not be welcomed in that society = BIG PROBLEMS.

I don’t want to be over-pessimistic, there’s no need for that now, as MB has only approx 15-20%, BUT if some "external part" where to change this "balance", I truly think the whole world is in deep trouble.

We’ve seen great pictures of mixed groups of Muslims and Christians. That’s great.

But let’s be realistic and also see things that are maybe not so nice.

I put my money on the "on-line youth", Revolution 2.0 and the words of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wael_Ghonim" :
http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1102/09/acd.01.html"

GHONIM: Muslim Brotherhood was not involved at all in the organization of this. Muslim Brotherhood announced that they're not going to participate officially. And they said if the young guys want to join, if their young guys want to join, they're not going to tell them no.

If you want to free a society, just give them Internet access, because people are going to -- the young crowds are going to all go out and see and hear the unbiased media, see the truth about, you know, other nations and their own nation, and they're going to be able to communicate and collaborate together.

WATSON: Was this an Internet revolution?

GHONIM: Definitely, this is the Internet revolution. I will call it revolution 2.0.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wael_Ghonim"
 
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  • #564


DevilsAvocado said:
I’m not an American or Zionist, but this scare the sh*t out of me, and I can understand if people in Israel get much more worried than me... I wouldn’t call that a "phobia" of any kind... it looks like reality to me...
It's not clear to me exactly what's scaring you. Hizb is not a part of MB, nor associated with it in any direct or operational way, so I don't see the relevance of the passage you quoted from the Hizb wiki page. Hizb and MB, where they coexist, tend to follow rather different approaches (e.g., Hizb supports armed resistance, MB does not).
 
  • #565


Gokul43201 said:
I did - I watched both videos. What am I missing?
I don't think you missed anything. Clapper's body language (hand movements and expressions) were very unusual - quite odd.
 
  • #566


Well, this would seem to have taken a turn for the potentially violent. Tonight is relatively calm (for mass protests), but the military has to make a choice, and they're out of time.

Tomorrow we may well see the Egyptian army kill fellow Egyptians, either civilians, or Republican Guard. That really COULD lead to the Somalia scenario (yes WhoWee, the one you tried to point out to me), but with the Suez...?

I think this is the first time in this entire process that I've felt fear at the prospects for the region. We can only hope that Suleiman can explain that SOMEONE has to run a country, but so far his words do not seem to be hitting the right notes. I also hope that this isn't an attempt to marginalize protesters and create violence to force the hand of the military.
 
  • #567


AlephZero said:
More FUD, aimed at the ignorant west. By definition, every Islamist on the planet is "associated". Look up the meaning of the Arabic word "ummah".

This is no more significant than claiming the Arizona shooter was "associated with opposition Republicans under the name of the Tea Party" in the US.

Basically, you are saying the Muslim Brotherhood has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with Islamic extremeists - now or ever - no connections?

Because that would be the correct comparison to the Arizona shooter and the Republicans and Tea Party.
 
  • #568


Gokul43201 said:
It's not clear to me exactly what's scaring you. Hizb is not a part of MB, nor associated with it in any direct or operational way, so I don't see the relevance of the passage you quoted from the Hizb wiki page. Hizb and MB, where they coexist, tend to follow rather different approaches (e.g., Hizb supports armed resistance, MB does not).

I think you have to blame Wikipedia who has no more than 6 references/links to Hizb ut-Tahrir on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood

For me, the relevance is that both want to create Islamic states and Sharia laws, if the opportunity is there. I hope you are not denying this?

I also hope you are not denying the connection between the Muslim Brotherhood and Hamas, and that Hamas do support armed resistance?
 
  • #569


Nismar welcome back!
 
  • #570


WhoWee said:
Basically, you are saying the Muslim Brotherhood has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with Islamic extremeists - now or ever - no connections?

Because that would be the correct comparison to the Arizona shooter and the Republicans and Tea Party.
You are putting words in the mouth of somebody who probably planned no such slant in this complex situation. Why?

Please just discuss the facts as they are made available to us. There is no need to make an idealogical battle over every single thread in this forum.
 

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