News What Exactly Is Happening In the Arab/Persian World?

[DevilsAvocado]

... The US Ambassador made these comments - are you suggesting the Palestinians might not understand, appreciate, or believe her or President Obama's clarification of their position?

Please WhoWee, you are intelligent, let’s not play games.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41671189/ns/world_news-mideast/n_africa/

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said in a statement Israel "deeply appreciates" the U.S. decision to veto the resolution.
...
British Ambassador Mark Lyall Grant, speaking on behalf of Britain, France and Germany, condemned Israeli settlements in the West Bank. "They are illegal under international law," he said.
...
The Palestinians have said repeatedly that they will not resume peace talks until Israel halts settlement building in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, which the Palestinians want as their capital.

What Susan Rice is performing a 'Quadruple Salchow' in highest politics, but it’s just words, it doesn’t 'cost' anything.

If you are right – "IMO ... a situation where President Obama must defend all things Muslim" – Obama could not vote against the will of the Muslim Palestinian, right??

 

[WhoWee]

Please WhoWee, you are intelligent, let’s not play games.



What Susan Rice is performing a 'Quadruple Salchow' in highest politics, but it’s just words, it doesn’t 'cost' anything.

If you are right – "IMO ... a situation where President Obama must defend all things Muslim" – Obama could not vote against the will of the Muslim Palestinian, right??

Did I not label this behavior "posturing"? We can weigh and measure my words (especially those prefaced with IMO) but not the President's or his representatives on the world stage?

 

[Lacy33]

Interesting. Thank you BobG.
Why with a globe of educated people, why would anyone agree to do this revolting knowing that it will end badly?
Was the system (Egypt, others) so bad that they just had to kill it and let the worst possible situation come in?
Were the people doing this revolt aware that worst things would come? Did they think the US would rescue them or some other power... perhaps one with money, not the US?
It's not that I don't know what oppression is. I do on a smaller scale. When I revolted and bolted, I had a plan. Still running down the street away from a violent dictator, I did not know I wouldn't get my head blown off. But when I made it out, things did not, as you say happens also on the larger scale go as I planned.
I lost everything.
Do these people know that they have a most uncertian future?

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Did I not label this behavior "posturing"? We can weigh and measure my words (especially those prefaced with IMO) but not the President's or his representatives on the world stage?

Games games, nothing but games, just to deploy the vicious myth about Barack Hussein Obama, on a "Muslim Crusade". You are a very naughty little boy!

Tea anyone?

 

[nismaratwork]

Interesting. Thank you BobG.
Why with a globe of educated people, why would anyone agree to do this revolting knowing that it will end badly?
Was the system (Egypt, others) so bad that they just had to kill it and let the worst possible situation come in?
Were the people doing this revolt aware that worst things would come? Did they think the US would rescue them or some other power... perhaps one with money, not the US?
It's not that I don't know what oppression is. I do on a smaller scale. When I revolted and bolted, I had a plan. Still running down the street away from a violent dictator, I did not know I wouldn't get my head blown off. But when I made it out, things did not, as you say happens also on the larger scale go as I planned.
I lost everything.
Do these people know that they have a most uncertian future?

I know this has often been something that has gotten me into trouble, but... Ghaddafi is a PSYCHOPATH. A true, honest to god psychopath... organized and supported by fanatical cronies.

He WILL die in Libya, or end like Saddam (doubtful). Remember... Pan AM... he is a true terrorist. "This is [Ghadaffi's] country" (Ghaddafi)... you know what these kind of people do to what they can't control or have.

What sickens me, is that any number of bodies could make Libya a no-fly zone with minimal intervention. NO boots on the ground, but we could stop the air assets from being used. I'm looking at France, Spain, and Italy for this... you sold them this ****, now shoot it down.

To me, this is clear: we do not care about these lives... we care about oil. We talk, we mourn, and we moan (meaning governments and the UN), but NOTHING is done. NOTHING of substance while people are slaughtered like animals with weapons systems from the west.

DA: I'm sorry, but the Palestinians are dead people walking; their own "brothers" don't want them, the world doesn't want them, and Israel can't afford to have them. I'm not making a value judgement; like the Native Americans, they're going to fade and die.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

... Do these people know that they have a most uncertian future?

I think they do... their 'choice' is very simple: Either you risk your head blown off in the streets, or you could have your testes grilled by a dictator – if you say or do something 'wrong' (or you could just be a 'random victim' for psychopaths).

If I lived under similar conditions, I would have done exactly the same thing – years ago.

 

[nismaratwork]

I think they do... their 'choice' is very simple: Either you risk your head blown off in the streets, or you could have your testes grilled by a dictator – if you say or do something 'wrong' (or you could just be a 'random victim' for psychopaths).

If I lived under similar conditions, I would have done exactly the same thing – years ago.

I would have run, or if that had not been an option... I can't say here what I'd do. I'm surprised that nobody else has done it however.

edit:

"He is one of those people who would be enormously improved by death."
-H.H. Munroe

"Some men are alive simply because it is against the law to kill them."
-Edward W. Howe

 

[WhoWee]

Games games, nothing but games, just to deploy the vicious myth about Barack Hussein Obama, on a "Muslim Crusade". You are a very naughty little boy!

Tea anyone?

"Games games, nothing but games"?

Where is the "the vicious myth about Barack Hussein Obama, on a "Muslim Crusade" in my post?

I quoted the President directly - his words. That is something you might want to become accustomed to as 2012 approaches - IMO.

If anything, it might be argued that I inferred he manipulated a group of people - said things he thought they would want to hear. But given the fact that he is a world class politician - that might also be considered a significant compliment - as I intended.

I posted this specifically:

"There are many factors at work in the Middle East - clearly. I do give President Obama credit for giving young people a motivational push - is he somehow responsible for everything that is happening - of course not.

As for influence, like it or not, the Cold War relationships are still in place. The US has been clearly aligned with Egypt and Israel. The Russians have influence over Libya and Iran. I believe the Russians have enough - credibility - with the Libyan leader and people to control the situation if they choose.

As for the "out of the ashes" comment - I believe in the natural order of things. The people of the Middle East have always been ruled or threatened by a major power - they have never been a free democracy in the western sense. I see no clear indication that is the goal of the people. I also believe in the predicable outcome of power vacuums - they are filled by the strongest force.

When you read the words of President Obama - he hedged his bet to communicate with the young people (IMO) with the references to Islam - something they understand as a force. If a person or persons don't rise above the conflicts - the dominant force in the region is religion - not democracy.

I give Obama credit for understanding this point - I just disagree with his "packaging" of the US's embrace of all things Muslim.

Also IMO - this posturing has created a situation where President Obama must defend all things Muslim (or at least not acknowledge) when there are problems (Fort Hood, Ground Zero Mosque, Muslim Brotherhood, underwear bomber, etc.).

Something else I touched on earlier is the UN response to the turmoil in the Middle East. This is arguably the greatest opportunity they've ever had to make a difference - but appear to not even have a plan?

What should President of the United States of America Obama do now? Protect our national interests including our allies, the shipping lanes, private property of US citizens, and the oil fields we depend upon for energy. I also hope he's asked Putin (and anyone else that has influence) to do something in Libya to stop the slaughter. "



If you want to stand behind your descriptive phrase "very naughty little boy!", please support your comment about "games" and you might want to demonstrate specific weakness in my analysis?

 

[nismaratwork]

Langauge barriers... remember the language difference guys...

 

[DevilsAvocado]

What sickens me, is that any number of bodies could make Libya a no-fly zone with minimal intervention. NO boots on the ground, but we could stop the air assets from being used. I'm looking at France, Spain, and Italy for this... you sold them this ****, now shoot it down.

To me, this is clear: we do not care about these lives... we care about oil. We talk, we mourn, and we moan (meaning governments and the UN), but NOTHING is done. NOTHING of substance while people are slaughtered like animals with weapons systems from the west.

Nismar, you are NOT a "cold person"! This shows real empathy!



I think there is an even 'simpler solution' than deploy Gaddafi’s old friend Berlusconi. I think there was a vote in UN today? On getting a global resolution on a "flight ban" over Libya, don’t know what happened...

But let’s say this is deployed and schizo Gaddafi sends up those http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirage_F1#Current_operators" from 1973; how long would it take to turn this "flying junkyard" into "sweet memories"...? 5 maybe 10 minutes for the leading military nations... Goodbye Gaddafi.

DA: I'm sorry, but the Palestinians are dead people walking; their own "brothers" don't want them, the world doesn't want them, and Israel can't afford to have them. I'm not making a value judgement; like the Native Americans, they're going to fade and die.

Humm... never say never... 'miracles' happened before...

 

[DevilsAvocado]

... If you want to stand behind your descriptive phrase "very naughty little boy!", please support your comment about "games" and you might want to demonstrate specific weakness in my analysis?

Geez dude, calm down.

What has been said is right there for anyone to read, including your "analysis". This particular sidetrack is over on my part.

 

[Proton Soup]

As for my so called "theory" as you've specified is (still) related to my comment that "Also IMO - this posturing has created a situation where President Obama must defend all things Muslim (or at least not acknowledge) when there are problems (Fort Hood, Ground Zero Mosque, Muslim Brotherhood, underwear bomber, etc.). "?

If so - why doesn't this ""U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations Susan Rice told council members that the veto "should not be misunderstood to mean we support settlement activity." She added that the U.S. view is that Israeli settlements lack legitimacy. " " support my statement?

The US Ambassador made these comments - are you suggesting the Palestinians might not understand, appreciate, or believe her or President Obama's clarification of their position?

the truth is that we are simply overseeing the destruction of the palestinian people. the israelis can be accountable to us, but we never do more than just say that they shouldn't do something. meanwhile, crimes are being committed that you would be led to believe only happen in places like egypt, yet you never hear about them. http://www.mahsanmilim.com/ChildsTrialE.htm

the palestinians do not want the US as a mediator anymore, that's why they went to the UN. the longer they stick with us, the worse it gets for them.

 

[nismaratwork]

the truth is that we are simply overseeing the destruction of the palestinian people. the israelis can be accountable to us, but we never do more than just say that they shouldn't do something. meanwhile, crimes are being committed that you would be led to believe only happen in places like egypt, yet you never hear about them. http://www.mahsanmilim.com/ChildsTrialE.htm

the palestinians do not want the US as a mediator anymore, that's why they went to the UN. the longer they stick with us, the worse it gets for them.

I agree, with the caveat that their destruction is now inevitable. To be honest, it's become a "two enter, one leave" situation... they've lost in every concievable way. We've overseen a lot of death and destruction... this is just a little more.

...Oh, with the difference that regional governments are even harsher (and I'm not talking about Israel).

 

[Proton Soup]

I agree, with the caveat that their destruction is now inevitable. To be honest, it's become a "two enter, one leave" situation... they've lost in every concievable way. We've overseen a lot of death and destruction... this is just a little more.

...Oh, with the difference that regional governments are even harsher (and I'm not talking about Israel).

i'm not convinced of that. but either way, this has got to stop. otherwise, once they finish cleansing west bank and gaza, we'll have to deal with the people that still want eratz yisrael.

 

[nismaratwork]

i'm not convinced of that. but either way, this has got to stop. otherwise, once they finish cleansing west bank and gaza, we'll have to deal with the people that still want eratz yisrael.

I disagree, I think it's just a matter of securing what is already had. Why seek more when that would be counter to their own regional interests? You'd have involvement of Russia and China if they tried that, and it would alter their moral stance.


Anyway...

(I posted this is in the Libya Rapidly Changing thread):

It seems Ghaddafi (who I will now refer to as, "that son of goats") ordered ANOTHER bombing of Benghazi, and the pilot/crew punched out and crashed their jet(s?) into the desert.

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/02/2...otests-libyas-interior-minister-quits/?hpt=T1

 

[turbo]

It appears that a Libyan warship has gone to Malta, as the crew defected after refusing to shell Benghazi.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/babylonbeyond/2011/02/libya-warship-defects-to-malta.html

 

[Borg]

It appears that a Libyan warship has gone to Malta, as the crew defected after refusing to shell Benghazi.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/babylonbeyond/2011/02/libya-warship-defects-to-malta.html

Oh to see the look on [STRIKE]his[/STRIKE] "that son of goats" face over that!

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Malta must be thrilled at receiving all this free military gear lol

 

[turbo]

Malta must be thrilled at receiving all this free military gear lol

Free 40-50 year old military gear that they have no parts for? Still, it's nice to see that some factions of the military are refusing to slaughter fellow Libyans just to keep the creep in power.

 

[nismaratwork]

Oh to see the look on [STRIKE]his[/STRIKE] "that son of goats" face over that!

You know I love you now... right?

Yes, Malta is having a good day, while Spain, France and Italy should probably get ready for SERIOUS blowback. Oh... and candles... they might want to invest in candles.


It seems that bomber was headed for the oil fields, not the population center of Benghazi. This... is not a good development.

 

[nismaratwork]

Free 40-50 year old military gear that they have no parts for? Still, it's nice to see that some factions of the military are refusing to slaughter fellow Libyans just to keep the creep in power.

I'm sure they'll find a suitable buyer for a couple of French jets used by Qaddafi... maybe France will want them back?

 

[DevilsAvocado]

MJ IS GHADDAFI! Michael Jackson must have been Ghaddafi's day job when he's not being the godfather of Libya... he's the godfather of POP!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8flIbqvQ7Eo

 

[CAC1001]

They are saying Ghadaffi might be ordering the destruction of oil pipelines, think the world's oil supply might be in for a major shock soon?

 

[turbo]

They are saying Ghadaffi might be ordering the destruction of oil pipelines, think the world's oil supply might be in for a major shock soon?

Do you have a source? "They" are notoriously unreliable WRT the facts.

 

[CAC1001]

Do you have a source? "They" are notoriously unreliable WRT the facts.

Just was flipping through some news channels and heard it. That's why I said "might" though, as a lot of the stuff right now is totally unconfirmed as regards to Libya.

 

[nismaratwork]

I've been hearing this too, and it jives with the goat's son to try and bomb Benghazi's oil fields. Definitive? hell no... probable?... sure seems that way.

 

[mugaliens]

They are saying Ghadaffi might be ordering the destruction of oil pipelines, think the world's oil supply might be in for a major shock soon?

Wow, 8 posts. Trying to artificially inflate oil futures? Just kidding, but on a more serious note I'd like to see some more definative sources, as well.

 

[OmCheeto]

Malta must be thrilled at receiving all this free military gear lol

I was thinking the same thing the other day. A friend of mine spent some time in Malta, so I knew how small it was. I was curious if they had an air force at all.

Ok then, here's half of Malta's air force before the two Libyan colonels defected.

But I'd say their military budget is going to skyrocket now that are going to have to replace Gunther the old volkswagen mechanic with an army of techs to keep those two Mirages in the air.

 

[nismaratwork]

It would seem that Moamar has hired Algerian pilots, and his son's 7 battalions are on the prowl in Tripoli. With threats of mustard agents and poisoning water supplies, we can only hope those are desperate and empty threats.

Oh, and the mercenaries?... being offered 1000-2000 USD (reported by CNN, unconfirmed) Per diem... keep in mind that's as much or more than the average YEARLY earnings in the regions being drawn from.

 

[lisab]

They are saying Ghadaffi might be ordering the destruction of oil pipelines, think the world's oil supply might be in for a major shock soon?

NPR reported yesterday that Libya contributes 2% of the world's oil supplies. Saudi Arabia can make up that amount, effortlessly.

So I'm a bit perplexed as to why oil prices didn't budge much until Libya started having trouble. It doesn't seem that they are a big enough player to upset the markets; is it just the final straw?

 

[Proton Soup]

NPR reported yesterday that Libya contributes 2% of the world's oil supplies. Saudi Arabia can make up that amount, effortlessly.

So I'm a bit perplexed as to why oil prices didn't budge much until Libya started having trouble. It doesn't seem that they are a big enough player to upset the markets; is it just the final straw?

i believe they said something about it being very high quality/burns cleanly. got to keep things pristine in europa.

 

[nismaratwork]

NPR reported yesterday that Libya contributes 2% of the world's oil supplies. Saudi Arabia can make up that amount, effortlessly.

So I'm a bit perplexed as to why oil prices didn't budge much until Libya started having trouble. It doesn't seem that they are a big enough player to upset the markets; is it just the final straw?

They contribute 2% of the [STRIKE]supply[/STRIKE] PRODUCTION, but they sit on the largest proven African reserves... which could be scuttled. In addition, the Saudis are getting even richer as this happens, and just pledged 10 billion USD in what amounts to social bribery.

Ah yes... and remember: Italy gets 38% of their oil from Libya, for one example. Interrupt that, and Italy is suddenly in the market for different oil. Spain, France... and others (especially Spain) would be wise to invest in candles at this point.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Ok then, here's half of Malta's air force before the two Libyan colonels defected.

HUMMMMMMMMMMM!

See any resemblance on the aircraft insignia and these guys...??

[URL]http://iahmia.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/foppa.jpg[/URL]

When did Malta win the Olympic Gold in ICE HOCKEY?

These planes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Air_Force" !


()

 

[Proton Soup]

HUMMMMMMMMMMM!

See any resemblance on the aircraft insignia and these guys...??

[URL]http://iahmia.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/foppa.jpg[/URL]

When did Malta win the Olympic Gold in ICE HOCKEY?

These planes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Air_Force" !


()

no, those are just disks. 1000 free hours when you sign up for AOL.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

 

[BobG]

I was thinking the same thing the other day. A friend of mine spent some time in Malta, so I knew how small it was. I was curious if they had an air force at all.

Ok then, here's half of Malta's air force before the two Libyan colonels defected.

But I'd say their military budget is going to skyrocket now that are going to have to replace Gunther the old volkswagen mechanic with an army of techs to keep those two Mirages in the air.

Actually, two thirds of their fixed wing airplanes are Bulldogs (4 planes). They also have two Britten-Norman BN-2Bs.

They also have 5 helicopters, 3 of which used to belong to the Libyan Air Force, so there's precedence.

 

[mugaliens]

But I'd say their military budget is going to skyrocket now that are going to have to replace Gunther the old volkswagen mechanic with an army of techs to keep those two Mirages in the air.

Watch the movie http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Final_Countdown_(film)" . That was thirty-five years ago. Do you think we've been sitting still since then?

Sheesh!

I'm out.

 

[mugaliens]

Half second with a mechanic and a hammer and either would be totalled.

What the hell is this post about? grown a brain, someone, please. Thanks.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Final_Countdown_(film)"

Humor anyone? Poodles!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jK-NcRmVcw

 

[nismaratwork]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/02/25/libya.protests/index.html?hpt=T1

Well, the USA just dissolved diplomatic relations, almost the moment the Americans were safe in Malta.

Meanwhile, The goat's son gave another speech in Green Square exhorting the crowd to bleed to the last in defense of Tripoli, and then to sing and dance. Video is on CNN and elsewhere of the scene, and the attempted protest met with anti-material assets, including artillery and mortar fire.

 

[Proton Soup]

i've got a weird feeling that the ambassador is hoping to end up as the new leader.

 

[Borg]

It seems Ghaddafi (who I will now refer to as, "that son of goats") ...

That gives me an idea. Maybe we could get George Clooney and company to do something about the situation.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

 

[nismaratwork]

That gives me an idea. Maybe we could get George Clooney and company to do something about the situation.

Hehheheheh, that would make the world a much better place, yes.

 

[rootX]

Post Tunisia events:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12588004

Security forces in the Tunisian capital have fired tear gas to try to disperse hundreds of demonstrators outside the interior ministry.

These people are out of their minds.

 

[nismaratwork]

Post Tunisia events:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12588004


These people are out of their minds.

OK... first, if I could there would be a litany of curses preceeding this.

Second... stupid bastards... they need to maintain order, but if they use the tactics of the old regime they'll be treated the same way.

 

[edpell]

Hungery

These people are out of their minds.

taking GDP(ppp) and population from the CIA Factbook (current) and using one
quarter of GDP(ppp) divided by population as the minimum wage we get

$ per hour
US 6.20
France 4.35
Saudi 3.15
Libya 1.80
Tunisia 1.25
China 1.00
Egypt 0.80
Paki 0.30

$ per month
US 990
France 695
Saudi 500
Libya 290
Tunisia 200
China 155
Egypt 130
Paki 50

Maybe they are just hungery.

 

[Evo]

taking GDP(ppp) and population from the CIA Factbook (current) and using one
quarter of GDP(ppp) divided by population as the minimum wage we get

You forgot to take cost of living into consideration, so this doesn't have much meaning by itself. But, yes, the poor are very poor.

 

[edpell]

You forgot to take cost of living into consideration, so this doesn't have much meaning by itself. But, yes, the poor are very poor.

I am using the purchasing power parity numbers from the CIA Factbook that is the (ppp) in my post. I have let the CIA figure out the PPP conversion. I trust they know what they are doing.

The numbers would look far worse if I just used GDP.

 

[rootX]

taking GDP(ppp) and population from the CIA Factbook (current) and using one
quarter of GDP(ppp) divided by population as the minimum wage we get
...
Maybe they are just hungry.

Those comparisons are meaningless.

However, longer they protest, longer country stays in chaos, longer it takes to the bring back the country to the right track. It is nonsensical to overthrow governments and create chaos every time they feel hungry. Blaming government for everything, protesting, and creating chaos is not going to give them better living standards.