- #1,141
FizixFreak
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nismaratwork said:Agreed... Mubarak was just... Mubarak. I think people forget that the Middle East admires a tough man as leader, but over time I think Mubarak believed too many of his own stories, you know? Still, he listened in the end... not a good man, but as you say, not a monster. I'd add, what the hell is happening in Bahrain!? They just wrecked the square where protests were being held... what a cruel action.
Hmmm, it seems our respective media outlets are telling very different stories. Both are plausible, so I reserve judgment on the matter... all parties have reason to at least 'bend' the truth. The USA isn't new to it, but Pakistan isn't stupid (as you know)... I am surprised that they tried to cover it up. Countries shouldn't have to worry about ejecting someone with diplomatic immunity, it should be done with prejudice.
I think we'll never know exactly what happened, but for now at least maybe things can calm down a bit. Understand, the west generally sees Pakistan as potentially dangerous and divided, which is a rather limited view. The thing is, these events occur and confirm the very worst assumptions of Americans and Pakistanis; Americans are bullies and get away with things, and Pakistanis are just looking to nail an ex-soldier. Both are untrue of course, or at least, not MOST of the truth, but in both countries this does nothing except cause strife.
You have the USA and the central government quietly agreeing to drone strikes that the population as a whole is enraged about. On the USA side, people like me are torn... on one hand there are safe havens... on the other we kill a LOT of civilans... a lot. We're turning a country against us, and we're not recognizing how furious WE'D be if someone bombed saaay... California every so often, killing 10-30 civilians to get at a handful of 'bad guys'.
On the other hand, the USA is stretched thin due to our idiot invasion of Iraq, and actually trying to HOLD Afghanistan. I mean... Afghanistan...you'd think we'd learn at some point, right? Then, you have these unmanned aircraft that greatly appeal to a technologically saavy nation, and to commanders who only risk the lives of targets and civilians, not a pilot.
I don't think it's easy, but I think it's easIER than sending a sortie to bomb. I don't know how to reconcile this... I believe the only way to leave Afghanistan. If Al Qaeda gathers to train again, I suspect it's in Yemen and Somalia... Afghanis seem done with them. Given that... I don't know what on Earth we're doing there. We leave, and that means the current "Taliban" hiding in Eastern Pakistan cease to be targets. I just don't believe that any country or people can stand what we're doing, we're trying to fix our own mistakes in Afghanistan when we fought the Soviets by proxy, and in doing so we're creating more of the same in YOUR country.
If that's not madness, I don't know what it.
I can be very harsh, but it brings me no joy... my harshness comes from outrage and sadness. If one man had to die, be robbed, or whatever the hell happened... well... he was a solider. It would save more than 'trouble', it would be part of salvaging our wrecked relationship with your nation.
We play India against you, and you against India, and arm you both. I'm harsh because we've made such a mess of things already, and in a hard part of the world, that I think harsh is the only solution. Not harsh for ONE people, harsh for everyone involved; a clean cut. We need to accept that the Middle East is not something we understand very well, or operate particularly well in.
Sorry... I know this is an emotional issue for you, more than for me. I just try to see all of the angles and outcomes, and if a dead American, or a dead Pakistani saves deteriorating relations... so be it. We could have revoked his immunity, but the American public and diplomatic community would be outraged, and it would allow unscrupulous elements to set up embassy and other personnel.
Remember, if a Pakistani with diplo immunity did this in the USA, we'd expel the guy unless Pakistan withdrew immunity. People like Gaddafi's son Hannibal have done terrible things abroad with that protection.
On the level of one person, one life... it's unfair, but without diplomacy we have only isolationism and war. Diplomatic immunity can be abused, but without it the world would be unlivable.
Wow that was a long post sorry for the late reply by the way it took me an eternity to read through all of it and i do agree that we will probably never find out what really happened and i also appreciate how open minded you are on this matter we can't even tell what the hell is going on behind the "closed doors" of the senate.
"Humans will destroy them selves as soon as they are able too" quotation from a physicist and i think he is absolutely right in this thirst for absolute power and control humans really have not gained any thing i will not blame your government for acting as a bully why not blame my own for letting other bully them around? why not take a clear stand about the drone attacks?(last drone attack happened two days ago and it was on a "jirga" a tribal meeting killed 40 innocent men) i know its a bit depressing to say this but there is no doubt that with these type of "representatives" of human kind the fate of our species will definitely be catastrophic.
Enough of that what the hell is happening in Yemen police opens fire on protesters about 50 men are dead!
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