News What Exactly Is Happening In the Arab/Persian World?

[nismaratwork]

This is new...

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/meast/03/22/syria.protests/index.html?hpt=T2

Syria arrests opposition leader... it's almost as if these nations are ASKING for more trouble.

Meanwhile Yemen is an even more exciting place *heavy sarcasm* lately. I can't wait to see what kind of fanatical regime emerges from THAT rubble...

and oh yes, it seems a group of police protestors fired the Ministry of Interior building in Cairo!

*rubs temples*

This along with Christchurch, Japan, Sudan, Cote D'Ivorie, Libya, Tunisia, Bahrain... ooooh sweet aspirin.

 

[Borg]

Could be just another ploy or maybe a possibility.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/07/us-libya-congress-idUSTRE7266H720110307"

The nightly news is also reporting that two of Gaddafi's sons may have been killed by a Libyan pilot on a kamikaze mission. Strange times.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

The Mad Dog has barked again, no need for translation... "Europe"... "Glorious Victory"...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dwPtIEN8iU

Maybe west should change tactics and bomb the area around the mental patient with Aripiprazole...?

 

[nismaratwork]

Could be just another ploy or maybe a possibility.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/07/us-libya-congress-idUSTRE7266H720110307"

The nightly news is also reporting that two of Gaddafi's sons may have been killed by a Libyan pilot on a kamikaze mission. Strange times.

Wow...


I thnk your last two words sum up the last few months quite nicely.

@DA: What a jerk... understatement I know.

 

[Proton Soup]

This is new...

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/meast/03/22/syria.protests/index.html?hpt=T2

Syria arrests opposition leader... it's almost as if these nations are ASKING for more trouble.

Meanwhile Yemen is an even more exciting place *heavy sarcasm* lately. I can't wait to see what kind of fanatical regime emerges from THAT rubble...

and oh yes, it seems a group of police protestors fired the Ministry of Interior building in Cairo!

*rubs temples*

This along with Christchurch, Japan, Sudan, Cote D'Ivorie, Libya, Tunisia, Bahrain... ooooh sweet aspirin.

yeah, the libyan war makes a news diversion, so that you can go bust heads without attracting attention. israel is using it to go on some rampaging of its own right now. same as they did when they broke the gazan ceasefire in 2008 during the presidential elections. then, when news diverts away from the election, all people see is gazans firing rockets into israel.

some of our actions in pakistan may be also taking advantage of the news cycle. such is strife, eh?

 

[nismaratwork]

yeah, the libyan war makes a news diversion, so that you can go bust heads without attracting attention. israel is using it to go on some rampaging of its own right now. same as they did when they broke the gazan ceasefire in 2008 during the presidential elections. then, when news diverts away from the election, all people see is gazans firing rockets into israel.

some of our actions in pakistan may be also taking advantage of the news cycle. such is strife, eh?

Now THAT is much more realistic in my view.

 

[FizixFreak]

This is new...

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/meast/03/22/syria.protests/index.html?hpt=T2

Syria arrests opposition leader... it's almost as if these nations are ASKING for more trouble.

Meanwhile Yemen is an even more exciting place *heavy sarcasm* lately. I can't wait to see what kind of fanatical regime emerges from THAT rubble...

and oh yes, it seems a group of police protestors fired the Ministry of Interior building in Cairo!

*rubs temples*

This along with Christchurch, Japan, Sudan, Cote D'Ivorie, Libya, Tunisia, Bahrain... ooooh sweet aspirin.

]No doubt they are asking for trouble saudi government is also expecting such an outbreak and there is no reason that they shouldn't

http://www.utopiaforums.com/boardthread?id=politics&thread=42931&showdeleted=true

It seems like they want to settle every thing in peace but they are not giving what the public really wants to have throwing piles of money at the Saudi people may not work cause they are not short of that and of course the shias living in the country may also see this as a opportunity to fight for their rights.

yeah, the libyan war makes a news diversion, so that you can go bust heads without attracting attention. israel is using it to go on some rampaging of its own right now. same as they did when they broke the gazan ceasefire in 2008 during the presidential elections. then, when news diverts away from the election, all people see is gazans firing rockets into israel.

some of our actions in pakistan may be also taking advantage of the news cycle. such is strife, eh?

Wow i am surprised that people in the west actually think that way and to some extent i am happy that someone can actually see what Israel has been doing to the Palestine people as and GOD knows what kid of wicked plans do they have in their minds now..., i think the silence of the Arab leaders on the brutality of Israel on Palestine is also a reason that the Arab people have developed a collective rage against their leaders only Muslim country that speaks openly on the subject is IRAN and they are labeled as "a nuclear threat" and if you look at the world map Israel is surrounded by all the Muslim nations but none of them really speaks up against them.

 

[nismaratwork]

Oh dear, a large explosion outside of a bus in Jerusalem... this could lead to an some ugly reprisals.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

WTF!

France 24: ISRAEL BREAKING NEWS - Bomb explodes at crowded bus stop in Jerusalem, many casualties

 

[nismaratwork]

Yep... first time in over 4 years, you have to wonder if Ghaddafi was somehow behind this, or if it's just incredibly bad timing on the part of another group.

 

[WhoWee]

Yep... first time in over 4 years, you have to wonder if Ghaddafi was somehow behind this, or if it's just incredibly bad timing on the part of another group.

My guess is the "Libyan Strongman" has his hands full right now. Perhaps FizixFreak is on target?

"i think the silence of the Arab leaders on the brutality of Israel on Palestine is also a reason that the Arab people have developed a collective rage against their leaders only Muslim country that speaks openly on the subject is IRAN and they are labeled as "a nuclear threat" and if you look at the world map Israel is surrounded by all the Muslim nations but none of them really speaks up against them. "

 

[nismaratwork]

My guess is the "Libyan Strongman" has his hands full right now. Perhaps FizixFreak is on target?

"i think the silence of the Arab leaders on the brutality of Israel on Palestine is also a reason that the Arab people have developed a collective rage against their leaders only Muslim country that speaks openly on the subject is IRAN and they are labeled as "a nuclear threat" and if you look at the world map Israel is surrounded by all the Muslim nations but none of them really speaks up against them. "

It's possible, I really don't know. I didn't expect a bombing in Israel at this time frankly, it would be a distraction for those peacefully attaining freedom of some measure, and a distraction for the Libyan opposition. Beyond that... who knows?

 

[Proton Soup]

Wow i am surprised that people in the west actually think that way and to some extent i am happy that someone can actually see what Israel has been doing to the Palestine people as and GOD knows what kid of wicked plans do they have in their minds now..., i think the silence of the Arab leaders on the brutality of Israel on Palestine is also a reason that the Arab people have developed a collective rage against their leaders only Muslim country that speaks openly on the subject is IRAN and they are labeled as "a nuclear threat" and if you look at the world map Israel is surrounded by all the Muslim nations but none of them really speaks up against them.

i think i am very unusual, at least compared to most here in the USA. the only reason i am somewhat familiar with the http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/docs/12session/A-HRC-12-48.pdf" is that i became somewhat curious a few years ago with what i perceived as a rather condescending, paternalistic, borderline overtly racist attitude from a journalist in the mainstream press. so, i start paying attention, and eventually i come across scholars like Mr. Finkelstein.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpMpHgw7yVk

and some excellent sources of information like Mondoweiss. http://mondoweiss.net/

but you won't hear about it much in mainstream press in the US, as it self-censors. even mentioning it here is somewhat dangerous, as it's not politically correct to talk about it. but i think most are simply not interested, or just don't have the time to devote to figuring out exactly what is going on.

 

[Proton Soup]

Oh dear, a large explosion outside of a bus in Jerusalem... this could lead to an some ugly reprisals.

it was http://mondoweiss.net/2011/03/here-is-ayman-and-here-is-his-horse.html" . it's been ugly for quite a while. they had even just passed an apartheid law just before this bus. how on Earth israel can start implementing Jim Crow and have it go unnoticed in the US is bizarre to me. i think they are high on power at the moment, see an opportunity to cleanse while the world is otherwise preoccupied, and are simply going to go with it because no one will stop them.

 

[nismaratwork]

it was http://mondoweiss.net/2011/03/here-is-ayman-and-here-is-his-horse.html" . it's been ugly for quite a while. they had even just passed an apartheid law just before this bus. how on Earth israel can start implementing Jim Crow and have it go unnoticed in the US is bizarre to me. i think they are high on power at the moment, see an opportunity to cleanse while the world is otherwise preoccupied, and are simply going to go with it because no one will stop them.

Let me rephrase that: Ignoring the plight of the Palestinians for whom I have shockingly little sympathy when contrasted with how much I know about the misery of their daily lives... this could be ugly in an international setting.

Your points are interesting, but I have little pity for a group that is refused even by their so-called brothers, and frankly... lost. History has winners and losers, and these are the losers in this historical process. Pining over their slow and rather nasty destruction as a people is upsetting, but not as you say, not new, generally not appreciated, and finally:

People pick sides. Personally, I side with Israel, Aparthaid, walls, assasinations and all. It's a hard part of the world, and survival is both an ends and a means in and of itself. We could bicker about details and motivations, but I prefer to boil it down: The Palestinians are a trapped diaspora; trapped by Israel, by their own inability to accept total loss, and by every Arab neighbour who wants them in their country ALMOST as much as venemous serpents.

The right, and wrong of the issue is not something I'm concerned with in this case, only the Realpolitik. I figure I should be blunt here, I recognize the atrocities on all sides, I simply don't care much anymore; I've seen worse.

 

[Proton Soup]

Let me rephrase that: Ignoring the plight of the Palestinians for whom I have shockingly little sympathy when contrasted with how much I know about the misery of their daily lives... this could be ugly in an international setting.

Your points are interesting, but I have little pity for a group that is refused even by their so-called brothers, and frankly... lost. History has winners and losers, and these are the losers in this historical process. Pining over their slow and rather nasty destruction as a people is upsetting, but not as you say, not new, generally not appreciated, and finally:

People pick sides. Personally, I side with Israel, Aparthaid, walls, assasinations and all. It's a hard part of the world, and survival is both an ends and a means in and of itself. We could bicker about details and motivations, but I prefer to boil it down: The Palestinians are a trapped diaspora; trapped by Israel, by their own inability to accept total loss, and by every Arab neighbour who wants them in their country ALMOST as much as venemous serpents.

The right, and wrong of the issue is not something I'm concerned with in this case, only the Realpolitik. I figure I should be blunt here, I recognize the atrocities on all sides, I simply don't care much anymore; I've seen worse.

awesome. then we are on different sides. if by some quirk of fate, israel suddenly finds itself on the losing side, i don't want to hear a peep from you. all you understand is power and aggression. we tried appeasement once in europe, and it was a tragic failure. I'm not falling for it again. and I'm not having sympathy for people that learned nothing from their own tragedies except how great it is to be the aggressor.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

awesome. then we are on different sides. if by some quirk of fate, israel suddenly finds itself on the losing side, i don't want to hear a peep from you. all you understand is power and aggression. we tried appeasement once in europe, and it was a tragic failure. I'm not falling for it again. and I'm not having sympathy for people that learned nothing from their own tragedies except how great it is to be the aggressor.

I agree PS, but we must take a clear stand against all aggression. I think the main problem here is that 'outsiders' is picking sides and blaming everything on the other part.

We will never solve this problem in that manner... and "wishing for extinction" of millions of human beings is something I never expected to read on PF, which otherwise is full of clever minds. This is not Germany in the 1930’s.

The rest of the world needs to take a clear stand against all aggression, no matter which part is guilty, and use all civil means available to isolate the Hawks and reward the Doves (they exist on both sides).

This two-thousand-year-old conflict cannot be solved with violence and aggression, not even if the antagonists continue along this path for another thousand years.

Violence and aggression generates more religious radical fundamentalism, which generates more aggression, which generates more fundamentalism, etc, etc, etc, etc ...

It’s very hard for diplomatic negotiations if one believes he has the "Highest Power" on his side – and therefore can’t be wrong.

This is a political problem – not religious.

 

[FizixFreak]

i think i am very unusual, at least compared to most here in the USA. the only reason i am somewhat familiar with the http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/docs/12session/A-HRC-12-48.pdf" is that i became somewhat curious a few years ago with what i perceived as a rather condescending, paternalistic, borderline overtly racist attitude from a journalist in the mainstream press. so, i start paying attention, and eventually i come across scholars like Mr. Finkelstein.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpMpHgw7yVk

and some excellent sources of information like Mondoweiss. http://mondoweiss.net/

but you won't hear about it much in mainstream press in the US, as it self-censors. even mentioning it here is somewhat dangerous, as it's not politically correct to talk about it. but i think most are simply not interested, or just don't have the time to devote to figuring out exactly what is going on.

For a little time i was actually happy that there might be more people who think this way but it was too good to be true it doesn't makes much difference though Israel will stop at nothing to completely decimate the Palestine people and then quite ironically the ones who try to defend themselves will be called "terrorists" i have no idea how much hatred it takes to do such things i am not as disgusted as i am shocked...,shocked not only at the actions of Israel but even more shocked on the impotency of the Arab leaders.

I can talk a lot about what Israel is doing but this all could have been avoided if the Arab world would not have abandoned the Palestine people so they are the real culprits and its sad to know that this stuff is almost like "taboo" to be talked about its even more sad that even media is in on this like you said there are people who don't really care about this and accept what they are shown but who can blame them they are just trying to carry on with their lives but i have to take my hats off to you who really looks into this matter and for that i really respect you

 

[elabed haidar]

This is all usa and isreal fault if it weren't for them we could live in peace without the everyday interferences in our daily lives

 

[FizixFreak]

Let me rephrase that: Ignoring the plight of the Palestinians for whom I have shockingly little sympathy when contrasted with how much I know about the misery of their daily lives... this could be ugly in an international setting.

Your points are interesting, but I have little pity for a group that is refused even by their so-called brothers, and frankly... lost. History has winners and losers, and these are the losers in this historical process. Pining over their slow and rather nasty destruction as a people is upsetting, but not as you say, not new, generally not appreciated, and finally:

People pick sides. Personally, I side with Israel, Aparthaid, walls, assasinations and all. It's a hard part of the world, and survival is both an ends and a means in and of itself. We could bicker about details and motivations, but I prefer to boil it down: The Palestinians are a trapped diaspora; trapped by Israel, by their own inability to accept total loss, and by every Arab neighbour who wants them in their country ALMOST as much as venemous serpents.

The right, and wrong of the issue is not something I'm concerned with in this case, only the Realpolitik. I figure I should be blunt here, I recognize the atrocities on all sides, I simply don't care much anymore; I've seen worse.

Wow Nismar i have to say if you were born in the early 1900s and in Germany you would have been an excellent NAZI

I am sure that with such views you would not be against the Nazis because they probably did the same they supported the side that was in control not the side that was morally right..., for some reason i think that you are trying to be a TOUGH GUY you know the ones that act really blunt and aggressive to make other people think that they are real BADASS the reason i say this is because you don't really seem like a person who would support Israel on this subject you seem much more reasonable to me.

 

[FizixFreak]

This is all usa and isreal fault if it weren't for them we could live in peace without the everyday interferences in our daily lives

If you see me killing you brother and your brother is crying for help but you don't help him you just stand there and watch so who would be held responsible for you brother's death?

 

[elabed haidar]

we are laready with them we fought isreal in 2006 in lebanon i assume you knowabout that what can you expect from a small country like us to do go to libya and fight if our government which doesn't exist anyway was islamic like iran we could have destroyed isreal from a really long long time ago

 

[Char. Limit]

Funny, Iran is Islamic and they have a nuclear program. Nonetheless, Israel is still there. I wonder if Khomeini realizes that without Israel as a scapegoat, the Iranians might start looking further at their own leader and the crimes he's committed.

 

[WhoWee]

This is all usa and isreal fault if it weren't for them we could live in peace without the everyday interferences in our daily lives

Care to label this opinion - or support with facts?

 

[DevilsAvocado]

emphasis mine

This is all usa and isreal fault if it weren't for them we could live in peace without the everyday interferences in our daily lives

I could easily exchange that to:

This is all Iran and Hamas fault if it weren’t for them we could live in peace without the everyday interferences in our daily lives.​

And it would be exactly as valid.

we are laready with them we fought isreal in 2006 in lebanon i assume you knowabout that what can you expect from a small country like us to do go to libya and fight if our government which doesn't exist anyway was islamic like iran we could have destroyed isreal from a really long long time ago

Don’t you understand? The reason you don’t have a government is because not so smart 'opinions' like this...

Israel has the largest army in the region, IDF possesses top-of-the-line weapons, is widely believed to possesses weapons of mass destruction, and to be one of four nuclear-armed countries, and is supported by the last nuclear superpower on the planet – and your goal is to DESTROY Israel!?

Don’t you understand how ridiculous this is? Even if you (by a miracle) would get the similar military strength – the result would "only" be WW3 and a complete destruction of the planet.

Is this something you dream about??

Please, stop the 'revolutionary dreams' and come back to earth, and look for realistic long-term solutions, and lay down the guns – and start talking!

 

[nismaratwork]

awesome. then we are on different sides. if by some quirk of fate, israel suddenly finds itself on the losing side, i don't want to hear a peep from you. all you understand is power and aggression. we tried appeasement once in europe, and it was a tragic failure. I'm not falling for it again. and I'm not having sympathy for people that learned nothing from their own tragedies except how great it is to be the aggressor.

You're entitled to your view, and clear anger, but understand that I'm not moved. I really don't care if I'm a terrible person or not, I simply evaluate situations individually, not based on some dream. Your talk of appeasement and reference to WWII however, is unseemly. If you want to rant in response to my honest and personal appraisal, try those PM's you hate; it's far more appropriate for that. Here, you might want to stick to something less than a diatribe.

I believe that once you confine yourself to one side, you're doomed. You can support a side or outcome, but making it purely binary is to ignore complexity that is quite informative.

@FizixFreak: Israel is acting in a fairly monstrous fashion, and the Palestinians are doing the same. As you say, the people who have NO excuse are the Arab nations who make it almost impossible for a Palestinian to get so much as a work visa; to them this is just a distraction so they can steal more from their people. Why, if Israel were no longer an issue, people might notice their own dictators like Mubarak, Qaddafi, Assad... oh wait, they did!

I know you strongly disagree with my view Fizix, but I'm not going to lie to you or anyone else about it. I'm also not going to dress it up in a moral justification; I think you understand that the ME is not a gentle place at the level of governments (the people are great). You can't be soft in the ME and expect to survive, and with nations carved by the French, British, and sometimes the USA... well... it's amazing things have held this long.

I think that once this all settles down and the people have the governments they want (or something closer), Israel is going to actually be FORCED to change internal policy, or risk war. Yes, it's a war they'd probably win, but at what cost in the short and long term?

My point: No one is clean in this, no one is innocent, nobody is purely a victim or victimizer; it's a complex relationship of hatred, fear, frustration, and callous abuse by those in high office or the very rich.

@Char.Limit: I doubt that Iran is so far-sighted. After all, they have to know that Israel will strafe their metropolis before they allow a nuclear armed Iran. There's no talking to either nation, both have set themselves on a collision course.


This is all a miserable state of affairs, but all the international community has done is drag this out endlessly for the sake of spice and silk, salt and gold, and now strategic positioning and oil. What should we expect form ALL sides of a conflict when one empire, secular, Islamic, Christian, other... all keep raiding the SAME places? Turkey can barely hold, and they had Ataturk... I see little hope for the future there. Above all, I'm disgusted by the behavior of Arab nations who claim the Palestinians as their brothers, but in practice reject them.

I'll never forget in Kuwait, the only Palestinians you saw (RARELY) were poor...POOR! In Kuwait! On work visas that had to be constantly renewed, because as one friend explained, "they are like mad dogs." What!? If that's how their brothers see them, how does anyone expect Israel to do anything except make that perception reality, and "win" that way?

Hell, look at Egypt, where the military just banned protests... almost as though they hadn't learned a lesson.

What will happen in Syria? What does that mean for Lebanon? Israel is an issue on all sides, pro, anti, and neutral, but it's not the immediate issue until these Arab and Persian thieving royal families get the boot from their own people. That gives a moral high-ground to the Arab and Persian nations, who given time will have forged a real government that can represent their interests.

I just wonder, one that happens, will they still PRETEND to care about the Palestinians?

 

[nismaratwork]

emphasis mine


I could easily exchange that to:

This is all Iran and Hamas fault if it weren’t for them we could live in peace without the everyday interferences in our daily lives.​

And it would be exactly as valid.

Don’t you understand? The reason you don’t have a government is because not so smart 'opinions' like this...

Israel has the largest army in the region, IDF possesses top-of-the-line weapons, is widely believed to possesses weapons of mass destruction, and to be one of four nuclear-armed countries, and is supported by the last nuclear superpower on the planet – and your goal is to DESTROY Israel!?

Don’t you understand how ridiculous this is? Even if you (by a miracle) would get the similar military strength – the result would "only" be WW3 and a complete destruction of the planet.

Is this something you dream about??

Please, stop the 'revolutionary dreams' and come back to earth, and look for realistic long-term solutions, and lay down the guns – and start talking!

I would normally agree, but the Palestinians were betrayed so completely by the PLO under Arafat, and their neighbours... how can they possibly expect talk to work? The Israelis are just tired of being bombed and dealing with people who HAVE become ruled by radicals, after being ruled by criminals.

Until the USA, Russia, China, and EU all sit down with REAL governments in the ME, and place Jerusalem into some kind of multinational custodianship, then adress the issue of the Palestinian diaspora... there is going to be no peace. I'm not religious, but I've never spoken to a religious Israeli, or Arab who doesn't think that Jerusalem should be theirs... the Palestinians rarely come up except as props.

I think people forget just how much has been stolen from the Palestinian people by their own leaders, and after a couple generations of being radicalized by anyone with an agenda... of course this is the way.

Think of what it took to (mostly) resolve the issue of the IRA, and that was with governments that weren't ad hoc revolutionary kleptocracies. We're not going to see peace in the ME in our lifetimes, if ever.

That is why I choose a side in some ways, as Proton so eloquently stated.

 

[nismaratwork]

G-d, this is truly sick:

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/03/23/libya.war/index.html?hpt=T1

STORY HIGHLIGHTS
NEW: Coalition effort is not "a land invasion," according to U.S. official
Hospital patients and doctors paralyzed by fear
No military participation by Jordan
In the last day, the coalition has flown 175 sorties over Libya, official says
[----]

Tripoli, Libya (CNN) -- Despite five days of coalition airstrikes, troops loyal to Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi continued Wednesday to terrorize residents of the besieged rebel-held city of Misrata.

One witness said Gadhafi's forces had attacked the city's main hospital, where 400 people -- about half of them patients -- were located. The push began at 8 p.m. (2 p.m. ET), when "heavy tanks for Gadhafi troops start attacking the hospital -- the bombs falling here 20 meters (66 feet) around us," said one person inside the hospital. He said two deaths had occurred "around the hospital."

At one point, shelling occurred without respite for 40 minutes, he said. "Now, fortunately, no more shelling, but the situation is so serious that all the teams here -- the doctors, the patients -- are paralyzed, scared."

He called for international intervention to protect the civilians inside the institution. "Nobody can work here," he said. Ambulances were not able to leave the hospital, which had lost its electricity and was using generator power, he said.

During the last day, the international coalition has flown 175 sorties over Libya -- 113 of them by U.S. planes and the remainder from other nations participating in the U.N.-backed mission, U.S. Navy Rear Adm. Gerard Hueber told reporters Wednesday.

This is just a taste of what Ghaddafi would have done to Benghazi... I'm sorry, he's a monster beyond the norm... this is deranged behaviour that will turn his own people not just against him, but suicidally so. Who wouldn't die to protect their home from meaningless assault, or their wounded from shelling!?

There is a glimmer in the dark however...

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/03/23/us.gadhafi.inner.circle/index.html?hpt=T1

STORY HIGHLIGHTS
U.S. officials: Gadhafi's inner circle reaching out to other Arab states and U.S.
Officials say none of the contacts has indicated Gadhafi was ready to leave
"They are indeed reaching out, but it's not clear to what end," one official says
Gadhafi's brother-in-law has called the State Department almost daily, officials say

 

[nismaratwork]

Do we have any Syrian members who can shed some light on what's going on in Syria? It doesn't look like a revolt or call for Assad to go, just reform. I'm not so clear on my sources however, and I don't trust something like CNN for this.

 

[Proton Soup]

You're entitled to your view, and clear anger, but understand that I'm not moved. I really don't care if I'm a terrible person or not, I simply evaluate situations individually, not based on some dream. Your talk of appeasement and reference to WWII however, is unseemly. If you want to rant in response to my honest and personal appraisal, try those PM's you hate; it's far more appropriate for that. Here, you might want to stick to something less than a diatribe.

I believe that once you confine yourself to one side, you're doomed. You can support a side or outcome, but making it purely binary is to ignore complexity that is quite informative.

i'm not confined to one side. but i am vehemently opposed to the one-sided representation this gets in the US media. and i am appalled and sickened that my country and its treasury is being used to support some rather disgusting things. so yes, I'm going to ***** about it from time to time. i don't normally try to rant and shove it down peoples' throats, but i am going to bring up issues from time to time in addition to egypt, libya, bahrain, pakistan, etc.

i'm also not unrealistic. i don't expect or hope for a destruction of israel. i do think it is reasonable to get them to pull back to the 1967 borders, tho. a two-state solution is not unreasonable and it can work.

now, I'm sorry you're offended by my reference to appeasement, but I'm not going to take back what i said, either. because i think that is exactly what is going on. i still remember from years ago when the taking of the Golan Heights was justified because of it being strategic militarily. but it's obvious now that all the land taken in 67 will become settlements. and when, maybe even before, that land is filled, they will be looking to expand. already this year, the defense minister was making noise about invading lebanon. they need only create an excuse like they did in 2008. that, and I'm just tired and disgusted with the attitudes of some of these zealots. they're as crazy as some of these aryan skinheads. i can't ignore that. i can't ignore the hypocrisy that keeps being thrust at me.

and believe me, i do understand your points of view on some of these things. i have entertained some of the same thoughts, and probably much worse when push comes to shove. for instance, I'm not sure i could remain non-vigilante if some of the violent latino gangs were ever to make their way into my neck of the woods. but not on the basis on "nobody likes them". i suppose nobody likes the Kurds, either.

in any case, i will try to be a little less vehement.