I What happens in the area between black holes before they collide

Click For Summary
The area between two colliding black holes is primarily considered to be empty space, similar to the vacuum near a single black hole. While the gravitational effects are significant, there is no "fabric of space" to experience stress in the conventional sense. Light paths may be complicated due to the black holes' gravitational influence, but no extraordinary effects are expected unless matter is present nearby. The merging process results in a single singularity and horizon, complicating the notion of two separate black holes. Overall, the dynamics of black hole collisions remain a complex area of study with many unanswered questions.
Physics news on Phys.org
  • #62
timmdeeg said:
Saying straight line, have you this scenario in your mind?

Star and two equally sized black holes form an equilateral triangle and on the opposite side the same with an observer instead of the star. Both triangles are in the same plane.
No. I was thinking of the photo's of the eclipsed sun taken by Eddington to help Einstein prove GR. Background star light passing near the sun appeared to move (displace) out since the light path was curved by curved spacetime. Since this pass-by effect is largely localized nearer the gravity source, but inversely lessened further away from the gravity source, I imagine it has the effect of "cratering" a "spacetime rim" of all nearby background light, including bright stars, into a concentrated ring of slightly brighter magnitude. I expect that this "rim" effect is an effect greatly magnified more rim-like by a powerful gravity source such as a BH as opposed to a sun-sized star. I did not mean the formal Chwolson Ring that Einstein once noted by any single bright star in a perfectly concentric sight line with the gravitational body.

By dim background glow, I mean that I believe the entire sky is evenly covered by nearly invisible direct distant starlight from somewhere (barring another BH dark spot). This very weak glow is then considered omni-present, but nearly obliterated by ordinary starlight as ordinary starlight is diminished by a bright moon. In the case of a very powerful gravitational lensing effect, I supposed that the "gathered" marginal rim-glow would become more detectable. And then finally, I thought that two nearby BH's would create a "double flat-tire effect" deforming the "crater rim light", which would then result in a squeezed straight line of starlight or flattened brighter tangent between them. Thus the expected general brighter line formation (or a proportional arc in the case of unequal BH's).

I my defense for answering like this, the original question itself was very general, seeming to look for a simple response, or observation. My post was what I thought to be an appropriate (though less than precise) simple expected answer. As we may note, the subject later morphed into a more detailed consideration (thread converted to "I") that seems to demand a graduate thesis quality answer, which is fine... as long as we differenciate the more precise, more complicated comparison as PeterDonis did above. The OP now knows his original question has no complete answer that is simple.

And, as far as the misspelling of Schwarzschild, my apologies... I normally watch my spelling. My Win7/I.E. 11 recently quit on this forum. I am now using a broken tablet that seems to have mind of it's own, and being lazy, did not check past duckduckgo.com which seemed to initially accept my misspelling. With all the misguided helpful tablet auto-corrects, outright errors and obliterations, I think I could write faster and more accurately on a stone tablet. :(

Wes
 
  • #63
Wes Tausend said:
I imagine it has the effect of "cratering" a "spacetime rim" of all nearby background light, including bright stars, into a concentrated ring of slightly brighter magnitude.

You imagine incorrectly. The effect of the Sun on the starlight seen by Eddington's eclipse expeditions was to displace its apparent point of origin outward from the Sun. If you are envisioning a dim background of constant magnitude (which is in itself incorrect--see below), the effect of the Sun would spread that background light over a wider area and would therefore decrease its apparent magnitude.

Wes Tausend said:
By dim background glow, I mean that I believe the entire sky is evenly covered by nearly invisible direct distant starlight from somewhere (barring another BH dark spot).

You believe incorrectly. If the sky were really entirely evenly covered by distant starlight, it would not be dark. Google "Olbers paradox".

In fact, since our observable universe is of finite size and stars have only been shining for a finite time, only a finite fraction of our sky is occupied by starlight.

Wes Tausend said:
I my defense for answering like this, the original question itself was very general, seeming to look for a simple response, or observation. My post was what I thought to be an appropriate (though less than precise) simple expected answer.

The problem with your posts is not that they were less than precise. It is that they were wrong, because the underlying beliefs from which you derived your answers are wrong. See above.
 
  • Like
Likes weirdoguy
  • #64
PeterDonis said:
Indeed it would. I don't know of any attempt to do it, since, as you say, it would require all the computations that are done for LIGO, plus additional ray propagation computations on top of that.
Well, the calculations of my colleagues in Frankfurt, related to the "image of a black hole" taken by the event-horizon telescope, indeed use relativistic magnetohydrodynamics and imaging techniques to predict what's to be expected to be "seen":

https://doi.org/10.3847/2041-8213/ab0f43

https://relastro.uni-frankfurt.de/eht-discovery-related-videos-and-images/
 
  • #65
vanhees71 said:
the calculations of my colleagues in Frankfurt, related to the "image of a black hole" taken by the event-horizon telescope, indeed use relativistic magnetohydrodynamics and imaging techniques to predict what's to be expected to be "seen"

But this is for a single black hole, not a black hole merger. The latter is much more complicated since you don't have a known exact solution as a base approximation to start from.
 
  • #66
  • Like
Likes Wes Tausend and Ibix
  • #67
vanhees71 said:
Well, this is also done by my colleagues (even for the more complicated case of neutron-star mergers, which are even more interesting to us as relativistic nuclear physicists, because it's telling us many more details about the equation of state of strongly interacting matter):

https://relastro.uni-frankfurt.de/neutron-star-physics/
https://relastro.uni-frankfurt.de/gallery/
Very good, vanhees! Rereading the original post, this is exactly the sort of BASIC info I expect the original poster was looking for.

I almost think that it would be better to retain the B status of an interesting amateur question and start a new Intermediate thread on the same intriguing subject rather than change the thread scope to "I" midstream. This encourages the continued participation of younger members and lesser educated adults in Basic discussions. Otherwise, what is the point of differentiating the type of discussion as a foundation of the thread?

Wes
 
  • Like
Likes vanhees71
  • #68
I actually think the following is more what the OP and many people are looking for: showing the background distance stars, computed numerically. I didn't see any such videos in the site provided by @vanhees. The following is from the following collaberation: https://www.black-holes.org/

 
  • Like
Likes Wes Tausend
  • #69
Wes Tausend said:
Rereading the original post, this is exactly the sort of BASIC info I expect the original poster was looking for.

PAllen said:
I actually think the following is more what the OP and many people are looking for

The OP has only made one other post in the entire thread besides the one that started it; without any feedback it's hard to know what the OP was looking for.

Wes Tausend said:
I almost think that it would be better to retain the B status of an interesting amateur question and start a new Intermediate thread on the same intriguing subject rather than change the thread scope to "I" midstream.

The thread level was changed way back in post #13, because pretty much every post in the thread even then was "I" level. That's even more true now.
 
  • #70
The OP has not been back and the thread topic has been sufficiently discussed. Thread closed.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
1K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 73 ·
3
Replies
73
Views
1K
  • · Replies 22 ·
Replies
22
Views
3K
  • · Replies 24 ·
Replies
24
Views
2K
  • · Replies 13 ·
Replies
13
Views
1K
  • · Replies 67 ·
3
Replies
67
Views
5K
  • · Replies 12 ·
Replies
12
Views
2K
  • · Replies 10 ·
Replies
10
Views
2K
  • · Replies 10 ·
Replies
10
Views
2K