What has happened to gender separation?

[einswine]

For some reason you took me as condemning or criticizing them, when my only point was that that kind of look is not about beauty.

I see, you have my sincere apologies.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Personally, I don't observe that there's been any general movement toward androgyny. It sounds to me like Wolram just started to notice some kind of generally scruffy look that is in fashion where he lives at the moment. There are some kids who come through here who are like that, but they are a fringe movement. This girl I talked to said they're called "crusties" because they never wash their clothes. It's not about gender-bending at all. It's a kind of hobo-ism, or embrace of disenfranchisement. They are, in fact, hobos in that they are homeless and nomadic, but they're all young, and stick together in groups as they move around. They beg, or play guitar with a hat out for tips, and find the local soup kitchens. "Crusties" are pretty noticeable, but I wouldn't doubt there are other very scruffy looking youth sub-cultures with a kind of punk/homeless style of dress in different places.

 

[Sophia]

In my experience, there are women who enjoy buying new clothes and can spend a small fortune on them. It makes them feel good.
Than there are woman, as far as I can say for my rough estimation in my area, who dress nicely only because it is informally required at their job. They don't enjoy dressing officially nor wearing makeup, but they do it to fit in and avoid gossip by other women. In my opinion, this is the majority in my area.
Than there are lucky ones who work in jobs not requiring any special clothes. Jeans and sweatshirt is enough. This is my category and I really enjoy it! It's comfortable, simple and saves tons of time and money. I only wear minimal eyeshadow and mascara, sometimes nail polish.
Have men ever thought how uncomfortable feminine clothes are? What about spending a few days in high heels?
In my opinion, being feminine is not about wearing a whole palette on your face nor wearing dress that could be mistaken for a t-shirt because it's so short.
Being feminine is being clean, with decent matching colours, maybe wearing a nice perfume that's not too strong. And most of all, behaving kindly, showing one's intelligence and good manners. This does NOT mean being submissive! Of course I strongly believe that a woman must be strong and courageous if it is necessary.

 

[PWiz]

some girls look like boys and some boys look like girls, what has happened to gender separation?

Well, I have long hair, and I trim regularly because I don't like having facial hair. Some people think I look feminine, but I don't see what the issue is. What exactly makes someone 'masculine' or 'feminine'? Is it fair to label those who don't conform to these "standards" as eccentric? I would rather have people judge me on the basis of my personality rather than my appearance, because the latter is a personal choice whereas the former is natural. This whole thing kinda sounds like the elementary school idea of "boys like red and girls like pink. You're a girl for liking purple [because that is closer to pink]!"

 

[Bandersnatch]

boys like red and girls like pink

Ugh. Kids these days and their ambiguous modern gender stereotypes. In my day and age boys couldn't even tell the difference between those colours!

 

[Sophia]

Boys like red? That's girls colour! Boys like blue! Boys liking red- Sign of end of the world ...
:-D

 

[WWGD]

In my experience, there are women who enjoy buying new clothes and can spend a small fortune on them. It makes them feel good.
Than there are woman, as far as I can say for my rough estimation in my area, who dress nicely only because it is informally required at their job. They don't enjoy dressing officially nor wearing makeup, but they do it to fit in and avoid gossip by other women. In my opinion, this is the majority in my area.
Than there are lucky ones who work in jobs not requiring any special clothes. Jeans and sweatshirt is enough. This is my category and I really enjoy it! It's comfortable, simple and saves tons of time and money. I only wear minimal eyeshadow and mascara, sometimes nail polish.
Have men ever thought how uncomfortable feminine clothes are? What about spending a few days in high heels?
In my opinion, being feminine is not about wearing a whole palette on your face nor wearing dress that could be mistaken for a t-shirt because it's so short.
Being feminine is being clean, with decent matching colours, maybe wearing a nice perfume that's not too strong. And most of all, behaving kindly, showing one's intelligence and good manners. This does NOT mean being submissive! Of course I strongly believe that a woman must be strong and courageous if it is necessary.

Agree, but consider the hassle and pain of wearing a suit and tie and formal shoes. Ever heard of anyone(mostly men) say:" I am uncomfortable in these clothes, let me put on a suit and tie".

 

[zoobyshoe]

I would rather have people judge me on the basis of my personality rather than my appearance, because the latter is a personal choice whereas the former is natural.

The thing is, people can control their appearance to a large extent, so appearance is an extension of personality. To the extent anyone notices choices you've made about your appearance, they are observing your personality.

 

[PWiz]

The thing is, people can control their appearance to a large extent

This is exactly my point - appearances can be manipulated at will, and the result does not always reflect the personality of a person. You cannot determine the intent behind an appearance just by looking at it. Plus, different people will draw different conclusions on the things they see, so there is no fixed scale to compare this on. (For example, some teenage male may keep his hair long to just look "cool" and gain some popularity/peer acceptance, while another might do it simply because it feels more natural to him.) Any attempt to objectively analyze an inherently subjective concept is doomed to fail.

 

[zoobyshoe]

This is exactly my point - appearances can be manipulated at will, and the result does not always reflect the personality of a person. You cannot determine the intent behind an appearance just by looking at it. Plus, different people will draw different conclusions on the things they see, so there is no fixed scale to compare this on. (For example, some teenage male may keep his hair long to just look "cool" and gain some popularity/peer acceptance, while another might do it simply because it feels more natural to him.) Any attempt to objectively analyze an inherently subjective concept is doomed to fail.

It sounds like maybe you have had the experience of being misread by inept observers, which is actually pretty common: everyone has gotten ridiculous feedback from some people. I'm not claiming everyone is good at understanding how the way someone dresses says something about their personality.

But, if you focus on what you can tell as oppose to what you can't tell, then you can tell a lot, and start building a sort of "differential diagnosis". First off, it's pretty easy to tell who puts effort into their appearance as opposed to who doesn't. If you observe the body language of those who don't, you can start to get an inkling of which ones just have low self esteem, which ones are defiantly sloppy, which ones are mentally ill, which ones are alcoholics, which ones are outright homeless, etc. If you pay attention to people who do take care with their appearance you can start seeing the differences between those who do it from social pressure and those who really get into it. You can start separating the wealthy from those who aren't so wealthy but still spend a lot on their appearance cause they want to. You can see whose dress is primarily business oriented and whose is primarily fashion oriented. You can tell the difference between someone who is dressed up to look respectable and someone who is dressed up to look sexy. I'm not saying you can read people's minds, but all these indicators tell you something about their personalities. And you can, in fact, often tell when a person has dressed themselves to obscure something about their personality, or to try and project an image they don't actually inhabit. There are "tells" for everything, if you pay attention.

 

[alw34]

are often chosen especially because they are esthetically jarring.

Some think orange hair and a nose ring is beautiful.

And some just want attention.

And why not: so many today win 'participation prizes' and many kids know that's fake.

My eight year old nephew said "They didn't keep score. It was dopey." And his team got clobbered!

 

[jack476]

It's quite simple. There is no longer any great social pressure on girls and women to be girly and womanly because traditional gender roles are weakening and fading. And it's just a fact that jeans, t-shirts, and close haircuts are just much easier and more convenient.

That's a separate thing from why some people go way off the deep end with trying to look rebellious. Gods help me, I have a younger sister who's into the whole goth/scene thing. Leggings covered in inverted crosses, t-shirts that say "**** YOU WORSHIP SATAN", handbags and shirts with pentagrams all over (which I kind of like, because she gets absolutely pissed when I tell people she's an aspiring graph theorist), several pairs of jeans that I am rather certain were fished out of a dumpster after being sent through a woodchipper, and the whole half-shaved Skrillex hair thing.

As for "non-conformist" subcultures in general, I'll defer to Dr House:

Dr. Gregory House: Nonconformity - right. I can't remember the last time saw a twenty-something kid with a tattoo of an Asian letter on his wrist. You are one wicked free thinker! You want to be a rebel? Stop being cool. Wear a pocket protector like he does, and get a hair cut like the Asian kids that don't leave the library for twenty hour stretches. They're the ones who don't care what you think.

 

[WWGD]

It's quite simple. There is no longer any great social pressure on girls and women to be girly and womanly because traditional gender roles are weakening and fading. And it's just a fact that jeans, t-shirts, and close haircuts are just much easier and more convenient.

That's a separate thing from why some people go way off the deep end with trying to look rebellious. Gods help me, I have a younger sister who's into the whole goth/scene thing. Leggings covered in inverted crosses, t-shirts that say "**** YOU WORSHIP SATAN", handbags and shirts with pentagrams all over (which I kind of like, because she gets absolutely pissed when I tell people she's an aspiring graph theorist), several pairs of jeans that I am rather certain were fished out of a dumpster after being sent through a woodchipper, and the whole half-shaved Skrillex hair thing.

As for "non-conformist" subcultures in general, I'll defer to Dr House:

Dr. Gregory House: Nonconformity - right. I can't remember the last time saw a twenty-something kid with a tattoo of an Asian letter on his wrist. You are one wicked free thinker! You want to be a rebel? Stop being cool. Wear a pocket protector like he does, and get a hair cut like the Asian kids that don't leave the library for twenty hour stretches. They're the ones who don't care what you think.

Yes, it sort of defeats the purpose when one has to go so far out of one's way to show one does not care what others think.

 

[OCR]

Lol...

Yes, it sort of defeats the purpose when one has to go so far out of one's way to show one does not care what others think.

 

[Boolean Boogey]

I cannot help but wonder what it matters how women dress. If you're not dating what is the concern with how strangers dress themselves? Such a strange and frivolous thing to worry about.

 

[zoobyshoe]

It's quite simple. There is no longer any great social pressure on girls and women to be girly and womanly because traditional gender roles are weakening and fading.

The thing is, I don't find Wolram's observation to be generally true. I don't find gender separation to be weakening at all. The only big change I see regarding gender is that there is increased tolerance of gays being openly gay. So, a lesbian can walk into a market dressed like a truck driver, if she wants, and be treated like any other customer, but that's a recognition of something that's always been there and suppressed, rather than a general weakening of gender roles. Social enforcement of gay rights is a political, human rights thing, just like any minority rights, and didn't come about due to some erosion of gender identity. It happened by sheer force of political correctness.

If women dress down more often, and I'm not sure they do, I don't think it has anything to do with gender roles. It would be better explained by the reasons Sophia gave, and by what you said here:

And it's just a fact that jeans, t-shirts, and close haircuts are just much easier and more convenient.

The motive is not to be more masculine and less feminine, it's to be more relaxed. Women dressing down when they can get away with it has been going on for ages. I have noticed an increased tolerance for casual, but that's a fashion thing that could change tomorrow if something happened to push it the other way.

Traditional gender roles have been weakening and fading, but the product isn't that women dress more masculine and men more feminine. It plays out as women being allowed to take on jobs and professions from which they used to be excluded due to gender. Thinking back to all the woman doctors I've seen in the past 20 years, I recall most of them wearing skirts. With one exception, they all had longish hair. I don't see women wanting masculine jobs; there's been no rush by women into auto repair, machine shops, welding, or garbage hauling. What they really want is the good jobs.

 

[DiracPool]

"It's a mixed up muddled up shook up world"

--Kinks, 1970

 

[Silicon Waffle]

Boys like red? That's girls colour! Boys like blue! Boys liking red- Sign of end of the world ...
:-D

http://scienceblogs.com/cognitivedaily/2005/09/27/do-women-perceive-color-differ/

 

[jackwhirl]

I like men to look and act like men and women to look and act like women.

Is anything else possible? I mean, what's the standard deviation?

 

[Sophia]

Is anything else possible? I mean, what's the standard deviation?

What about these? :)
http://nonbinary.org/wiki/List_of_nonbinary_identities

 

[jackwhirl]

What about these? :)

That could be an answer depending on whether you define men and women by sex or gender.
I tend to operate with the assumption of the former. Please forgive my ambiguity.
Stating my question more precisely, is it possible for men to look and act like anything other than men (and women like women) remembering that the appearance and behaviour of humanity is diverse, rather than monolithic?

 

[Sophia]

That could be an answer depending on whether you define men and women by sex or gender.
I tend to operate with the assumption of the former. Please forgive my ambiguity.
Stating my question more precisely, is it possible for men to look and act like anything other than men (and women like women) remembering that the appearance and behaviour of humanity is diverse, rather than monolithic?

So you mean that however a man behaves, it's a male behaviour even if it's against the cultural norm?
E.g. as I made a little joke above, if a boy likes red, it's still a typically male preference even if according to culture, only girls should like red? Or if a man decides to wear a skirt, we should accept it as a natural male behaviour?

I'm sorry if I got you wrong, it was a bit difficult for me to understand that sentence.

 

[jackwhirl]

I'm sorry if I got you wrong, it was a bit difficult for me to understand that sentence.

Communication is hard! Yes, the intent of my question was to provoke such. But also to ask what others thought in response.
What do you think?

 

[Psinter]

I like men to look and act like men and women to look and act like women. Of course, at the end it's up to the individual alone, but every now and then when I see a woman that looks and behaves like a truck driver, I think: "What a pity!".

Your words are so asking for a meme. Must... resist...

Spoiler: Can't resist

Couldn't resist anymore:

Note: I would so not go at her bro. I repeat: I would so not go at her bro.

 

[gjonesy]

To be a true non-conformist these days is to be the Amish...

What kids don't realize is that by getting piercings, tats, wearing ripped up clothes, gender neutrality and trying to look like everyone else these days,( they are just doing what they see as unique), BUT its everywhere now so therefore isn't so unique anymore its all a fashion trend.. dare to be different...be a rebel...be AMISH lol

 

[Sophia]

Communication is hard! Yes, the intent of my question was to provoke such. But also to ask what others thought in response.
What do you think?

It's a very interesting thought. I agree. It might be in some way just another point of view trying to express what is usually taught in social science classes.
Usually it's stated that there is no such thing as a typical male or female, because everyone is somewhere on the continuum of various characteristics. And in most people, the sum of these tends to lean toward one end (male or female as understood by particular culture) of the spectrum. But in each individual, at least some of the typical traits of the other gender are present.
The problem is also that these gender characteristics vary between the cultures. In anthropology, we have accounts of cultures where typical gender roles were reversed to our concept (= typical men were expected to be gentle and typical women were expected to be strong). Of course, there are not many societies like that in the world, but they exist(ed). They are probably extinct/assimilated now.
So definitely, we come to the same conclusion that it is impossible to invent universal gender characteristics.
It seems to me that claiming that whatever a person does is natural for that gender and stating that everyone is just on some place on the spectrum between culturally accepted ideals is a similar thing. It's just based on different point of view .
Your definition is certainly very interesting and refreshing for me.

 

[Opus_723]

I get a little sick of these things.

Gah, that woman put her decorative piercing in one of the unacceptable cartiliginous structures! Why can't she just skewer her auricular lobule like everyone else? That would be much more pleasing to my personal sensibilities. Society is just circling the drain.

 

[Sophia]

I get a little sick of these things.

Gah, that woman put her decorative piercing in one of the unacceptable cartiliginous structures! Why can't she just skewer her auricular lobule like everyone else? That would be much more pleasing to my personal sensibilities. Society is just circling the drain.

Haha your sound like Bones Brennan.

 

[collinsmark]

I get a little sick of these things.

Gah, that woman put her decorative piercing in one of the unacceptable cartiliginous structures! Why can't she just skewer her auricular lobule like everyone else? That would be much more pleasing to my personal sensibilities. Society is just circling the drain.

And men? Is there a point about men and women who both/each pierce their cartilaginous structures? What am I missing? Perhaps more to the point, are you saying one gender is circling society's drain and not the other?

 

[WWGD]

It's a very interesting thought. I agree. It might be in some way just another point of view trying to express what is usually taught in social science classes.
Usually it's stated that there is no such thing as a typical male or female, because everyone is somewhere on the continuum of various characteristics. And in most people, the sum of these tends to lean toward one end (male or female as understood by particular culture) of the spectrum. But in each individual, at least some of the typical traits of the other gender are present.
The problem is also that these gender characteristics vary between the cultures. In anthropology, we have accounts of cultures where typical gender roles were reversed to our concept (= typical men were expected to be gentle and typical women were expected to be strong). Of course, there are not many societies like that in the world, but they exist(ed). They are probably extinct/assimilated now.
So definitely, we come to the same conclusion that it is impossible to invent universal gender characteristics.
It seems to me that claiming that whatever a person does is natural for that gender and stating that everyone is just on some place on the spectrum between culturally accepted ideals is a similar thing. It's just based on different point of view .
Your definition is certainly very interesting and refreshing for me.

Still, if you accept that form follows function, the difference between the male and female brains suggest otherwise.

 

[jackwhirl]

What am I missing?

User Opus_723 is a wizard. He cast reductio ad absurdum.