What has happened to gender separation?

[zoobyshoe]

It's quite simple. There is no longer any great social pressure on girls and women to be girly and womanly because traditional gender roles are weakening and fading.

The thing is, I don't find Wolram's observation to be generally true. I don't find gender separation to be weakening at all. The only big change I see regarding gender is that there is increased tolerance of gays being openly gay. So, a lesbian can walk into a market dressed like a truck driver, if she wants, and be treated like any other customer, but that's a recognition of something that's always been there and suppressed, rather than a general weakening of gender roles. Social enforcement of gay rights is a political, human rights thing, just like any minority rights, and didn't come about due to some erosion of gender identity. It happened by sheer force of political correctness.

If women dress down more often, and I'm not sure they do, I don't think it has anything to do with gender roles. It would be better explained by the reasons Sophia gave, and by what you said here:

And it's just a fact that jeans, t-shirts, and close haircuts are just much easier and more convenient.

The motive is not to be more masculine and less feminine, it's to be more relaxed. Women dressing down when they can get away with it has been going on for ages. I have noticed an increased tolerance for casual, but that's a fashion thing that could change tomorrow if something happened to push it the other way.

Traditional gender roles have been weakening and fading, but the product isn't that women dress more masculine and men more feminine. It plays out as women being allowed to take on jobs and professions from which they used to be excluded due to gender. Thinking back to all the woman doctors I've seen in the past 20 years, I recall most of them wearing skirts. With one exception, they all had longish hair. I don't see women wanting masculine jobs; there's been no rush by women into auto repair, machine shops, welding, or garbage hauling. What they really want is the good jobs.

 

[DiracPool]

"It's a mixed up muddled up shook up world"

--Kinks, 1970

 

[Silicon Waffle]

Boys like red? That's girls colour! Boys like blue! Boys liking red- Sign of end of the world ...
:-D

http://scienceblogs.com/cognitivedaily/2005/09/27/do-women-perceive-color-differ/

 

[jackwhirl]

I like men to look and act like men and women to look and act like women.

Is anything else possible? I mean, what's the standard deviation?

 

[Sophia]

Is anything else possible? I mean, what's the standard deviation?

What about these? :)
http://nonbinary.org/wiki/List_of_nonbinary_identities

 

[jackwhirl]

What about these? :)

That could be an answer depending on whether you define men and women by sex or gender.
I tend to operate with the assumption of the former. Please forgive my ambiguity.
Stating my question more precisely, is it possible for men to look and act like anything other than men (and women like women) remembering that the appearance and behaviour of humanity is diverse, rather than monolithic?

 

[Sophia]

That could be an answer depending on whether you define men and women by sex or gender.
I tend to operate with the assumption of the former. Please forgive my ambiguity.
Stating my question more precisely, is it possible for men to look and act like anything other than men (and women like women) remembering that the appearance and behaviour of humanity is diverse, rather than monolithic?

So you mean that however a man behaves, it's a male behaviour even if it's against the cultural norm?
E.g. as I made a little joke above, if a boy likes red, it's still a typically male preference even if according to culture, only girls should like red? Or if a man decides to wear a skirt, we should accept it as a natural male behaviour?

I'm sorry if I got you wrong, it was a bit difficult for me to understand that sentence.

 

[jackwhirl]

I'm sorry if I got you wrong, it was a bit difficult for me to understand that sentence.

Communication is hard! Yes, the intent of my question was to provoke such. But also to ask what others thought in response.
What do you think?

 

[Psinter]

I like men to look and act like men and women to look and act like women. Of course, at the end it's up to the individual alone, but every now and then when I see a woman that looks and behaves like a truck driver, I think: "What a pity!".

Your words are so asking for a meme. Must... resist...

Spoiler: Can't resist

Couldn't resist anymore:

Note: I would so not go at her bro. I repeat: I would so not go at her bro.

 

[gjonesy]

To be a true non-conformist these days is to be the Amish...

What kids don't realize is that by getting piercings, tats, wearing ripped up clothes, gender neutrality and trying to look like everyone else these days,( they are just doing what they see as unique), BUT its everywhere now so therefore isn't so unique anymore its all a fashion trend.. dare to be different...be a rebel...be AMISH lol

 

[Sophia]

Communication is hard! Yes, the intent of my question was to provoke such. But also to ask what others thought in response.
What do you think?

It's a very interesting thought. I agree. It might be in some way just another point of view trying to express what is usually taught in social science classes.
Usually it's stated that there is no such thing as a typical male or female, because everyone is somewhere on the continuum of various characteristics. And in most people, the sum of these tends to lean toward one end (male or female as understood by particular culture) of the spectrum. But in each individual, at least some of the typical traits of the other gender are present.
The problem is also that these gender characteristics vary between the cultures. In anthropology, we have accounts of cultures where typical gender roles were reversed to our concept (= typical men were expected to be gentle and typical women were expected to be strong). Of course, there are not many societies like that in the world, but they exist(ed). They are probably extinct/assimilated now.
So definitely, we come to the same conclusion that it is impossible to invent universal gender characteristics.
It seems to me that claiming that whatever a person does is natural for that gender and stating that everyone is just on some place on the spectrum between culturally accepted ideals is a similar thing. It's just based on different point of view .
Your definition is certainly very interesting and refreshing for me.

 

[Opus_723]

I get a little sick of these things.

Gah, that woman put her decorative piercing in one of the unacceptable cartiliginous structures! Why can't she just skewer her auricular lobule like everyone else? That would be much more pleasing to my personal sensibilities. Society is just circling the drain.

 

[Sophia]

I get a little sick of these things.

Gah, that woman put her decorative piercing in one of the unacceptable cartiliginous structures! Why can't she just skewer her auricular lobule like everyone else? That would be much more pleasing to my personal sensibilities. Society is just circling the drain.

Haha your sound like Bones Brennan.

 

[collinsmark]

I get a little sick of these things.

Gah, that woman put her decorative piercing in one of the unacceptable cartiliginous structures! Why can't she just skewer her auricular lobule like everyone else? That would be much more pleasing to my personal sensibilities. Society is just circling the drain.

And men? Is there a point about men and women who both/each pierce their cartilaginous structures? What am I missing? Perhaps more to the point, are you saying one gender is circling society's drain and not the other?

 

[WWGD]

It's a very interesting thought. I agree. It might be in some way just another point of view trying to express what is usually taught in social science classes.
Usually it's stated that there is no such thing as a typical male or female, because everyone is somewhere on the continuum of various characteristics. And in most people, the sum of these tends to lean toward one end (male or female as understood by particular culture) of the spectrum. But in each individual, at least some of the typical traits of the other gender are present.
The problem is also that these gender characteristics vary between the cultures. In anthropology, we have accounts of cultures where typical gender roles were reversed to our concept (= typical men were expected to be gentle and typical women were expected to be strong). Of course, there are not many societies like that in the world, but they exist(ed). They are probably extinct/assimilated now.
So definitely, we come to the same conclusion that it is impossible to invent universal gender characteristics.
It seems to me that claiming that whatever a person does is natural for that gender and stating that everyone is just on some place on the spectrum between culturally accepted ideals is a similar thing. It's just based on different point of view .
Your definition is certainly very interesting and refreshing for me.

Still, if you accept that form follows function, the difference between the male and female brains suggest otherwise.

 

[jackwhirl]

What am I missing?

User Opus_723 is a wizard. He cast reductio ad absurdum.