What Have Educators Learned About Distance Learning?

[WWGD]

(@anorlunda knows this already, but for the info of others...) Here at the PF the Mentors have noticed an increase in the number of new posters who post schoolwork questions and seem to have little to no idea how to start working on the problem. In more normal times, posts that start with "I have no idea how to start this problem" were often deleted and the user was reminded to show their best attempt when re-posting.

But unfortunately, lately we are getting more young students who really don't have a clue on some of the things they are studying, often because of the difficult distance learning situation that they are finding themselves in. Some of the difficulties that @Andy Resnick mentions above certainly come into play, including not knowing yet how to use the Internet to do background reading (at Wikipedia, Hyperphysics, etc., and how to use good Google searches with directed search terms). They may also have very slow Internet access, which certainly hinders being able to use online learning and research to help with their schoolwork.

So we are consciously trying to be extra patient with such new posters, to help them start to develop the skills they need to be able to work their particular problem, but also to get better at finding the things that they need online to help them overall with their studies.

I may have been too harsh with some of these questions which ( to most adults) would reply by saying" just do a Google/Search engine search". I never seriously considered some of the younger students may not know this or sometimes it requires to filter through lengthy text answers not all of which are written clearly. I will reconsider how to reply to these. You just don't want to feel like an idiot by doing something ( you assume) others can do for themselves. But then you're in a damned if I do...situation in which you may be doing for someone work they can do for themselves.

 

[berkeman]

But then you're in a damned if I do...situation

Agreed. I think the good news is that in most of these cases we've seen lately, the student responds well to the first few hints offered. I haven't seen many cheating-type "I have no idea" posts lately. I wonder if it's related somehow...

 

[bhobba]

He also said that it works best when students watch the lecture on their own, repeating as they see fit, then reserve the classroom/interactive time for questions and working exercises.

Yes - that is my observation when I did my degree part time. It was like the tutorial method often used in England. There, instead you go to a big lecture, which could be online, to hear the material. You read the textbook, notes etc and then attempt the exercises. Then you have small, say 2 hour tutorials, once a week, with the lecturer, and you go through your work and discuss any issues. Students can't goof off under this system - it's too easy to identify those not doing the work. That is best done face to face, but if necessary could be done online. In the current situation the face to face tutorial could easily be appropriately socially distanced, but otherwise I like the idea of a Harkness table.

Thanks
Bill

 

[bhobba]

Lordy

Oh yes - some classrooms are a terrible environment these days. Kids even bring knives to school and threaten teachers. For offending students like that (of course the majority are fine) I have in mind a very special school built around a police station. They are the ones that can legally use force, and I will make it very clear - you get out of line - that's exactly what will happen. I would like to see some parents try the same tactics with police they do with teachers - they might find themselves forcibly thrown in the 'klink'. No attendance issues either - if you do not turn up the police find you and unless you have a legal excuse forcibly 'march' you to school.

There are issues that go the other way as well, the most common one is in public schools the education is supposed to be free. Yet many are forced to pay school fees (they are supposed to be voluntary - but if you do not pay them then you may find 'nasty' letters sent etc). Another common one is the school uniform rort. It works like this. Schools, in consultation with staff, the P&C association, and local community can mandate a school uniform. If you do not wear it then you are constantly given detention slips until you do. But the trick is to have only one place you can buy the uniform and the school gets a cut from the sales. It's all a big bluff because education department rules say if you have any reasonable objection you do not have to wear the uniform. I would, with a copy of Visible Learning by Professor Hattie, see the principle and show him the section on uniforms and that they make zero difference to educational outcomes. I will not spend money on education 'accessories' that make no difference. If they adopt reasonable school uniform policies, rather than use it as a rort, I wouldn't really care and simply go to K-Mart (or similar) and get one (thats what happened when I was a kid - they were all cheaply available at the local discount store) - but scamming parents is IMHO not on.

Thanks
Bill

 

[bhobba]

There are good reasons for colleges to close, but student safety is not one of them. Do you know how many people aged 15-24 died of Covid in the US? 37. Total. Out of a population of 43M. Given a college full-time enrollment of 12M, that means 10 or 11 college students. Compare that to ~50 students murdered per year.

Now, protecting faculty and staff, that's another issue. Liability concerns? Sure. Reducing the spread of disease? Fine. But the argument should not be "think about the children!"

You are being rational. There is no reason for colleges or schools to shut at all, providing appropriate measures are taken to protect staff and students such as a more 'tutorial' kind of model I spoke about before. But here in Australia it's a very very heated issue. Doctors nearly unanimously say, provided appropriate measures are taken, they should remain open. But much of the public, the whole teachers union, and many politicians, think they know better.

Thanks
Bill

 

[Vanadium 50]

There is no reason for colleges or schools to shut at all

I agree that this protects few, if any, students. But there are at least three reasons to shut:

1. Protect the faculty, many of whom are older and high-risk
2. Any school that has a student die from Covid will be sued into oblivion
3. If the expert class exempts itself from the lockdown, why not exempt factory workers, or landscapers, or barbers, or...

 

[anorlunda]

Any school that has a student die from Covid will be sued into oblivion

That applies to any business, not just schools. Many of them are seeking legislative immunity from liability before reopening.

When this crisis started 2 months ago, my sister said that her tech company's executives consulted with lawyers, not doctors. Liability rather than protecting employees was most important in their decision to lock down.

New laws granting immunity from COVID related lawsuits might make good sense.

 

[ZapperZ]

That applies to any business, not just schools. Many of them are seeking legislative immunity from liability before reopening.

When this crisis started 2 months ago, my sister said that her tech company's executives consulted with lawyers, not doctors. Liability rather than protecting employees was most important in their decision to lock down.

New laws granting immunity from COVID related lawsuits might make good sense.

But if the health department or agency has issued a set of guidelines, then all other entities will be legally exposed if they choose to ignore it. So of course businesses will consult attorneys on whether it is sensible for them to ignore such advice. I don't see why this is an issue.

One also does not consult a doctor or doctors in these matters. The issue of public health should not be decided anecdotally. Instead, medical professionals, researchers, epidemiologists, public health experts, etc. work together to provide such a recommendation. It is not and should not be an opinion of one person.

In our case, once the mayor and the governor of the state declared a stay-at-home order, it is no longer a matter of choice or even consulting any lawyers. There were no other options.

Zz.

 

[ZapperZ]

Coming back to the on-topic discussion, for those of you who had to teach remotely and had your first experience at teaching lessons online, after the semester/quarter/course is over, do you think you have gained knowledge and skills to teach courses online? Or do you think that you need more training to be more effective to run online classes? If it is the latter, are you doing anything about it? Does your institution provide you with the opportunity to get the necessary training to run remote classes?

Zz.

 

[bhobba]

I agree that this protects few, if any, students. But there are at least three reasons to shut:

1. Protect the faculty, many of whom are older and high-risk
2. Any school that has a student die from Covid will be sued into oblivion
3. If the expert class exempts itself from the lockdown, why not exempt factory workers, or landscapers, or barbers, or...

Oh yes - you need measures to mitigate those things. The medical advice we keep hearing in Aus is they are manageable, just like they are in many other occupations that have continued working in the pandemic. That's where the debate gets very hard. We have people going to work with the same risks, and in some cases greater risks, than those in the education sector, but some want out. When I say go to work, those in any kind of risk category do not - its done from home. If it can't be done from home then, and nothing else is available, they are put on $1500 per fortnight from the government and wait it out. It's costing our government a fortune, but there seems no alternative. We keep hearing we need to get back to normal fast, but I consider that very irresponsible. Government debt can be paid back - human lives never can.

Thanks
Bill

 

[atyy]

Coming back to the on-topic discussion, for those of you who had to teach remotely and had your first experience at teaching lessons online, after the semester/quarter/course is over, do you think you have gained knowledge and skills to teach courses online? Or do you think that you need more training to be more effective to run online classes? If it is the latter, are you doing anything about it? Does your institution provide you with the opportunity to get the necessary training to run remote classes?

One of the things I use is PollEverywhere, which is the online version of the old-style clickers for students to respond to questions in class. I finished most of my teaching before classes went online, so I didn't have to figure out how to do that online, but I see there are courses from my institution about how to do that, so will probably take one of those courses before next semester.

 

[anorlunda]

Salman Khan. https://www.khanacademy.org is a pioneer in and perhaps the foremost practitioner of distance learning. His opinions on that topic are worth listening to. Here are his TED talks.

 

[ZapperZ]

Salman Khan. https://www.khanacademy.org is a pioneer in and perhaps the foremost practitioner of distance learning. His opinions on that topic are worth listening to. Here are his TED talks.

This is fine and dandy in principle, but how has it been practiced in reality?

I often teach a General Physics class for pre-med, bio, life-science majors who would rather stab their hands than take a physics class if they have the option. They just want a "C" so that they can move on and apply to med school and take their MCAT exam. That's their goal. Now try motivating that type of students and tell them that I'm teaching them how to learn and the amazing wonders of physics.

And btw, it is still debatable if Khan Academy videos are as effective as many have perceived. First of all, it has flaws, be it minor or significant. I've written about one that is right in my wheelhouse. But there have been studies where their effectiveness is still being questioned. See here, here, and here, for example. As a supplement, sure! Even I use one or two of them now and then. But as a replacement for primary source of teaching? Nope!

So his idealism and effectiveness are not commensurate with one another.

Zz.

 

[jedishrfu]

I really like Salman's approach especially the notion of watching a video as homework instead of having to really struggle with no help at home and going to school with the anxiety of not getting your homework completed and having to then scramble with friends to figure it out.

Then again maybe that was a good thing as it taught collaboration under fire and little time.

In my school days, we had none of these resources and had to rely solely on what we remembered from class, what we wrote down as notes (math notes were the hardest to write) and what we could figure out from the book always doubting if the book answer was right.

I had one classmate who did really well in English, History classes taking extensive notes of everything that was said. I couldn't do it, my mind would focus on the notes and then I didn't hear what was said or what was written and why. In contrast, I did well in math because I didn't take notes, I watched and learned. My friend did poorly in math because he couldn't make sense of all the notes he took.

 

[bhobba]

Was it a small class that he could manually word the question differently for each student, or did he have some software that would automatically vary the questions from student to student?

I have given thought to the best way of preventing cheating and the best I have come up with is individual and different assignments for each student (they can even suggest one - that happened a few times in my degree). And the thing I hate is creative thinking on a exam - make the questions similar to tutorials. The creative part should consigned to the assignments.

Thanks
Bill

 

[anorlunda]

The NY Times has an article exploring the very diverse approaches considered by colleges and universities to reopening.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/19/us/college-fall-2020-coronavirus.html

This one is far out-of-the-box.

Team Wildcat suggested turning residence halls into protective cocoons for living and learning.
“We have students functioning in pods, almost like family units,” Dr. Cardarelli told her colleagues, describing the idea. “They’re spending most of their time in residence halls together with the same students.”
Professors would come to the dorms to teach, she said, or do it via videoconference. This would reduce circulation and transmission of the virus, and make it easier to do contact tracing, her group theorized.
The student pods would take turns going to the dining halls. And, Dr. Cardarelli added, “no more buffet.”

 

[Dr. Courtney]

The biggest challenge was the sudden shift without adequate time for planning.
Even now, professors in some schools are being told to prepare for four possibilities in Fall 2020:
1) Begin online, transition to in person
2) Begin in person, transition to online
3) Online all semester
4) In person all semester

With finite time, very few teachers can do as good a job with those four possibilities as they could with 2-3 months to prepare for a known delivery method.

If a school is going to force a transition to online, the more time teachers have to plan and prepare, the more effective the learning will be.

 

[ZapperZ]

The June 2020 issue of Physics Today has an article on the struggles and effort that various physics faculties and schools went through during this past school period.

https://physicstoday.scitation.org/doi/10.1063/PT.3.4492

A few of the steps that were done were similar and familiar to my experience. The one thing that I was glad that I did was that my original classes all had "Pre-lectures", or what the article called the "flipped mode" (probably due to FlipIt Physics) where the students had to view videos or read something before they come to the first class of the week when a new topic will be covered. The pre-lectures were meant to introduce the concept of the topic, so that the students had some idea of what was to come.

When we went totally remote, I expanded that, because by then the pre-lectures became a major source of the material. So I was very glad that I had that structure in place already and the students were familiar with the pattern. That part of it went very well.

It's a good article because I always want to know what other instructors did, and what might be the best-practice method in doing something. This is more tangible than some esoteric philosophy of teaching that some talking heads spew in a TED talk.

Zz.

 

[bhobba]

The biggest challenge was the sudden shift without adequate time for planning.
Even now, professors in some schools are being told to prepare for four possibilities in Fall 2020:
1) Begin online, transition to in person
2) Begin in person, transition to online
3) Online all semester
4) In person all semester

I still like the idea of online lectures and say two one hour highly socially distanced tutorials with just a few students. For professors that are in an at risk group they will of course get a teaching assistant or other professor to lead the tutorials. It's similar to the UK model which has been in place for many years and seems to work quite effectively.

Thanks
Bill

 

[cosmicrayray]

My wife also taught middle school for nearly 30 years and although she retired last year she still keeps in touch with many of her teacher friends in Ithaca. She tells me that they are finding remote teaching for middle school and lower to be pretty much a disaster. Some kids do OK but most do not. The reasons are numerous but the main ones are lack of computer equipment / Internet and student's lack of home supervision and commitment/interest.

My spouse also taught middle school in Oregon for 30 years and is also in communication with current teachers. My son is a high school band teacher. I taught in a university setting-primarily freshman-level business (IT) and participated in the early designs of on-line courses at a large university that now has more than 15K on line students. The switch to any on line learning situation is highly individualized. It is extremely difficult for any student and their teachers to quickly switch learning and teaching modes. Given the discussion already posted I strongly believe that concentrating on testing performance as a methodology to gauge either student success or teacher effectiveness is not a reasonable or appropriate process to use.

In a schoolroom setting we get to control or at least interact with many of the variables of "place." The place environment is a foundation element in all learning. We know how and when learning happens when we get to manipulate the place variables-this in turn let's teachers emphasize content while responding to place realities. Of course, on-line learning completely removes "place" from the envelope of learning and teaching. In fact, teaching in on-line environments that do not involve analogs to the classroom environment such as a Zoom or Google Meets are little more than hopeful chances for learning. And those that do include on-line classroom meetings not much better. Humans learn better in the context of others. Expecting or measuring performance of either learning or teaching in on-line situations is completely the wrong thing to concentrate efforts. I don't have a near term solution other than restarting traditional schools and using 100% daily testing for virus infections to guide us regarding which room a student attends. I am quite concerned about the lost generation that could arise if we are not able to return to better learning environments. The on-line method is failing now and will continue to fail. In my son's rural school district, fewer than 40% of students even have internet at home or available, let alone a computer.

 

[mathwonk]

While these assessments seem largely correct to me, the phrase "lost generation" oddly inspired an optimistic thought in me. I myself learned almost nothing in the first 12 years of school, especially in middle school, because of the very low quality of schools where I grew up. But eventually, when exposed to higher standards, and motivated by need, I did at last learn something. So my hope is that even a lost year or so of quality instruction may not doom an entire generation.

At the moment, some people of my acquaintance are working as online tutors for children who are missing their usual instruction, and it seems to be working well, at least for those students with funds to afford it and motivation to take advantage of it. Perhaps states could invest in such personal help more, but as to what can substitute for motivation, I think no one has a complete solution. Encouragement seems key, but that might be available via Skype or Zoom, with the right teacher. I.e. while in - person instruction seems ideal, perhaps it is personal, in the sense of one on one, instruction that can help significantly, even if remotely...? Just a thought.

added: maybe this emergency could spur increased provision of internet service, and online instruction, to the general public. Some of us remember the 1960's when quality instruction from Berkeley math professors was freely available on tv, (e.g. John Kelley on Continental Classroom). I still have the textbook, Introduction to Modern Algebra, 1960, on my shelf.

 

[anorlunda]

I sympathize with both sides on this subject. One side being return to face-to-face teaching, and the other side being full-speed-ahead-online. There is no minimum-risk bright line between those extremes. An institution that makes the wrong bet faces existential threats.

It would help greatly to know if the pandemic problem is permanent or temporary (and how temporary). But we don't have a crystal ball. Uncertainty in a major factor paralyzes decision making in all fields. Education is no different.

 

[rsk]

It's absolute performance. The grades are not curved.

I have talked to a couple of them, and they were my strong A students. One student flat out told me that she dispised online classes because she knows that she needs human contact. She learns more when she talks to a teacher or another student. The other student said that the lack of "human supervision" caused him to simply slack off (even though I've been hounding him for not doing homework and missing pre-lectures, etc.).

Zz.

I am also teaching live to my students. Sometimes when we have covered something new and I have set them a task based on it, I give them the option of staying connected with me as they work through it, or disconnecting to work on it on their own. I have noticed two students, among the brightest and who need no help whatsoever, staying online with me, working through it at my no-faster-than-the-slowest pace. They like that contact.

I have also found that some of the nicest moments are when they are working on something individually but stay connected, with mics open, to chat to each other about their work (and sometimes about other stuff) as they work. It feels like being back with them in the classroom.

 

[Devils]

Yes - that is my observation when I did my degree part time. It was like the tutorial method often used in England. There, instead you go to a big lecture, which could be online, to hear the material. You read the textbook, notes etc and then attempt the exercises. Then you have small, say 2 hour tutorials, once a week, with the lecturer, and you go through your work and discuss any issues.

That's along the lines of a flipped classroom.

 

[Vanadium 50]

There is no minimum-risk bright line between those extremes.

Let's be clear. The risk to students is minimal. As I said nearly two months ago,

here are good reasons for colleges to close, but student safety is not one of them. Do you know how many people aged 15-24 died of Covid in the US? 37. Total. Out of a population of 43M. Given a college full-time enrollment of 12M, that means 10 or 11 college students. Compare that to ~50 students murdered per year.

That 10 or 11 number is now up to ~17. This would be full-time college students. Part-timers skew older, and are more at risk. So around 3 students per month.

One problem (of several) is that those three universities will be sued into oblivion. No matter what steps they took. The next month, three more. The month after that, three more. No university administrator wants to be one of those statistics.

Let me toss in one more statistic. College students are actually at less risk of suicide than the general population. (Source: Suicide Resource Prevention Center). It's about a factor of two. Presently about 100 college students per month lose their lives to suicide. For those who like trolley problems, something to consider.

 

[Dr Transport]

That's along the lines of a flipped classroom.

I used to sub for a teacher who used the flipped classroom concept. It all depended on how motivated the kids were to actually sit down and watch the video lectures. I found some were good and some bad. I could tell after one or two times in the classroom who wasn't doing their "homework"...

 

[anorlunda]

Let's be clear. The risk to students is minimal. As I said nearly two months ago,

That's the same argument we get from party goers in the bars and on the beaches. What about the risk to their grandparents and elderly faculty? All the virus suppression strategies have a strong altruistic element.

One problem (of several) is that those three universities will be sued into oblivion. No matter what steps they took.

I agree. I think there is an urgent need for national legislation giving safe harbor liability immunity for businesses, universities, and institutions who try to follow the guidelines. IMO fear of getting sued has a huge chilling effect. Educators and others should be supporting lobbying to get the legislation.
---
Relevant to this thread, is this article from a legal blog. Hybrid means some students on video with other students in the room.
https://reason.com/2020/06/17/the-difficulties-of-teaching-a-hybrid-class/

 

[Vanadium 50]

That's the same argument we get from party goers in the bars and on the beaches.

That's exactly right. The issue is College Student Mary might infect College Student Sue who then goes on to infect Great-Grandpa Joe. However, if we are going to make that argument we shouldn't pretend we are doing it for Sue's benefit.

 

[bhobba]

That's along the lines of a flipped classroom.

IMHO it's a better way.

Thanks
Bill

 

[ZapperZ]

I just had the confirmation that both of my classes for Fall 2020 will be run remotely, which means that it will continue with what we did during the 2nd half of Spring 2020. The only difference here being that campus facilities, such as computer centers, etc. will be open and available to students who wish to come in and use those facilities, unlike this past spring when the entire campus was shut down.

The technical issues were one of the major problems that I had this past Spring, because about 1/4 of the students in my Astronomy class didn't have wifi where they lived, and they also didn't have either a good-enough computer or didn't even have one to be able to attend live, synchronous lessons. Luckily, all of my physics students didn't have that problem. Even with the school lending out equipment and hotspots, it was a scramble during the first 3 weeks of the shutdown.

Now that we already know in advance what will happen and what to expect, all parties are more well-prepared this time around, I would think. I know I am more well-prepared to do both classes online this time around, since I've been expecting that ever since I started my summer vacation. I mentioned in my earlier posts that I've enrolled in two Quality Matters workshops during the summer to get formal credentials as an online instructor, but more importantly, in learning a few more important skills as an online instructor and conducting online classes. I've completed one already, and it was a very useful course. It forced everyone to look at an online course from the point of view of the student via examining the Quality Matters' extensive rubric. I learned an amazing amount of information that is valuable not just for any online classes that I will run, but also for the face-to-face classes that I hope to get back to after this pandemic blows away.

I have one more workshop to attend at the end of July on online teaching skills. I may not use everything that I've learned in these courses, but it is nice to know what the current best-practice methods are, and what have been tried and what didn't work.

Of course, the issue with General Physics courses are the labs. In my case, it is even more of an issue because many of my labs are incorporated within my lectures, i.e. they are not separate sessions or separate activities from the lessons. So that has been a struggle for me to now try to separate them out, and to find alternatives. I've been browsing through the material at Pivot Interactives, and I've been quite impressed by it. An instructor in my dept. is currently using it for a remote class during the summer session, and it seems to be going well. So this is something I'm seriously looking into before I fully adopt it. I still have about 1 1/2 months left before everything must be finalized, so it's going to be a rather busy next few weeks.

Zz.