What is the derivation for the equation for liquid pressure at depth?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the derivation of the equation for liquid pressure at a certain depth, specifically the formula P = hρg. Participants explore the applicability of this equation to various shapes of fluid columns, including irregular shapes and vertical prisms.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses confusion about the generalization of the equation P = hρg for irregularly shaped fluid columns, questioning the assumption that the area of cross-section can be treated as constant.
  • Another participant asserts that the equation applies universally, even in irregular shapes, by arguing that if pressure differs at the base of a tube inserted into the liquid, it would lead to flow, indicating that pressure must be consistent at the same depth.
  • A participant clarifies that the equation holds for any vertical column with constant cross-section and suggests that the pressure forces from surrounding liquid do not affect the vertical force balance.
  • One participant discusses the implications of force being a vector and how pressure forces act perpendicularly to surfaces, emphasizing that in non-prism shapes, the weight of the liquid is supported by the walls, complicating the pressure calculation.
  • Another participant reflects on their initial misunderstanding regarding pressure in a V-shaped vessel, noting that the pressure force on inclined sides contributes to the vertical component, thus validating the use of the equation in various scenarios.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the applicability of the equation for irregular shapes. While some argue for its universal validity, others express concerns about the assumptions involved in different geometries.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations regarding the assumptions of constant density and gravitational acceleration, as well as the need for careful consideration of the shape of the fluid column when applying the pressure equation.

Bipolarity
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The pressure of a liquid of constant density at depth 'h' is given by the equation:

P = hρg

I am trying to understand the derivation of this equation. I understand it perfectly for liquid columns with rectangular liquid columns but I can't see why it works if the shape of the fluid column is irregular.

P = \frac{F}{A} = \frac{mg}{\frac{V}{h}} = hρg

The problem is that \frac{V}{h} = A only if it is rectangular shaped, right?
So why should we allowed to generalize it for all fluid columns?

BiP
 
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No. For example, the area of a circle with radius r multiplied by a height h gives the volume of a cylinder with radius r and height h.
 
ecneicS said:
No. For example, the area of a circle with radius r multiplied by a height h gives the volume of a cylinder with radius r and height h.

Ok but what if the area of the cross-section changed with the height? Then would it still apply?

BiP
 
Bipolarity said:
Ok but what if the area of the cross-section changed with the height? Then would it still apply?
Yes, it always applies. Suppose you had liquid in a container of irregular shape and you inserted a tube vertically to some depth. If the pressure at the base of the tube resulting from the liquid in the tube were different from that elsewhere at the same level then there would be a flow into or out of the tube. The level at the top of the tube would now be different from that in the rest of the container.
 
Bipolarity said:
P = \frac{F}{A} = \frac{mg}{\frac{V}{h}} = hρg

The problem is that \frac{V}{h} = A only if it is rectangular shaped, right?
So why should we allowed to generalize it for all fluid columns?

BiP

The last equation holds for any vertical column with constant cross-section (prism). If the liquid has any other shape, you can still derive the same equation for imaginary vertical column in the liquid. "vertical" means directed in direction of gravitational acceleration. This way the pressure forces of surrounding liquid on the sides of the column don't affect the force balance in vertical direction (force is a vector and F in the first equation is its vertical component).
 
It is important to remember that force is a vector and that pressure force in liquid is perpendicular to the surface. If the liquid container does not have the shape of a vertical prism, then the force on the bottom surface is not equal to the weight of the liquid, because weight of the liquid is also supported by the walls of the container.

Before I understood that I had troubles understanding the liquid pressure on the bottom of a V shaped vessel: I thought it should be infinite, because "the weight of the water is supported by a single point (zero area)". This assumption is wrong, because V shaped vessel has inclined sides and pressure force on them will have a nonzero vertical component.

Only in case of a vertical column we can assume that the pressure force on the bottom equals the weight of the liquid. Of course we can always define an imaginary vertical column in any liquid container. So the formula

P = \frac{F}{A} = \frac{mg}{\frac{V}{h}} = hρg

is valid for all cases where the density and gravitational acceleration are constant.
 

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