What is the meaning of dx and how does it relate to dy/dx?

  • I
  • Thread starter FS98
  • Start date
  • Tags
    Dx
In summary, there are various ways in which dx is used in calculus, such as in the definition of dy/dx, in the context of limits and infinitesimals, and in integration using u substitution. While some sources may use dx and delta x interchangeably, in the framework of hyperreal numbers, dx can be treated as a real number with algebraic properties. Ultimately, the use of dx and du in calculus is simply a notation to indicate the variable of integration and to apply the chain rule, and does not have a significant impact on the overall understanding of the concepts.
  • #1
FS98
105
4
Often I have to solve problems using dx or dq. I always don’t quite understand what’s going on.

I understand what dy/dx is but not just dx. Can someone walk me through in plain language a somewhat rigorous definition of differential like dx?
 
Mathematics news on Phys.org
  • #2
There’s some YouTube videos online by 3blue1brown on the Essence of Calculus where they go over this very topic.

Here’s the first of the sequence

 
  • Like
Likes lekh2003 and FS98
  • #3
jedishrfu said:
There’s some YouTube videos online by 3blue1brown on the Essence of Calculus where they go over this very topic.

Here’s the first of the sequence


I notice that he and some other sources sometimes use delta x and dx interchangeably. He also says that dx is not infitesimally small.

He sometimes also refers to dx as a small change in x.

Is dx literally just a small change in x? Not infinitely small, but sufficiently small?
 
  • #4
In elementary calculus [tex]\frac{dy}{dx}[/tex] is defined as the limit as [tex]\Delta x \to 0 \ of \ \frac{\Delta y}{\Delta x}[/tex]. Therefore dx is infinitely small. However in elementary calculus, dx by itself has no meaning.
 
  • Like
Likes FS98
  • #5
mathman said:
In elementary calculus [tex]\frac{dy}{dx}[/tex] is defined as the limit as [tex]\Delta x \to 0 \ of \ \frac{\Delta y}{\Delta x}[/tex]. Therefore dx is infinitely small. However in elementary calculus, dx by itself has no meaning.
In calculus 1 dx and du are used alone for u substitution.
 
  • #6
mathman said:
In elementary calculus [tex]\frac{dy}{dx}[/tex] is defined as the limit as [tex]\Delta x \to 0 \ of \ \frac{\Delta y}{\Delta x}[/tex]. Therefore dx is infinitely small. However in elementary calculus, dx by itself has no meaning.

This depends on the calculus teacher or book used. However infinitesimals like ##dx## can be treated like real numbers with all the same algebraic properties as real numbers when Calculus is cast in the framework of hyperreals.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperreal_number

You can find Kreisler’s Elementary Calculus copyright free online here:

http://www.math.wisc.edu/~keisler/calc.html
 
  • Like
Likes FS98
  • #7
FS98 said:
In calculus 1 dx and du are used alone for u substitution.
This sounds as if you are talking about integrals. Here we have something like ##\int f(x)\,dx ##, whereas in the differentiation process we have ##f\,'(x)=\dfrac{df}{dx}##. The name of the variables, ##x## or ##u##, ##f(x)## or ##y##, are not important. It's just a label to work with and a convention which are used when. In both cases it basically means something like a small amount of. Technically it stands for the limit where this small amount gets smaller and smaller. In differentiation, it is a quotient, a slope of secants narrowing down to one of a tangent, and in integration, it is height ##f(x)## times width ##dx##, i.e. the limit of Riemannian sums, see e.g.
https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/omissions-mathematics-education-gauge-integration/

For all practical purposes of integration, it is enough to consider ##dx## as just a notation which determines what the integration variable is, because all others, which don't change with ##x## are constants.
 
  • Like
Likes FS98 and jedishrfu
  • #8
fresh_42 said:
This sounds as if you are talking about integrals. Here we have something like ##\int f(x)\,dx ##, whereas in the differentiation process we have ##f\,'(x)=\dfrac{df}{dx}##. The name of the variables, ##x## or ##u##, ##f(x)## or ##y##, are not important. It's just a label to work with and a convention which are used when. In both cases it basically means something like a small amount of. Technically it stands for the limit where this small amount gets smaller and smaller. In differentiation, it is a quotient, a slope of secants narrowing down to one of a tangent, and in integration, it is height ##f(x)## times width ##dx##, i.e. the limit of Riemannian sums, see e.g.
https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/omissions-mathematics-education-gauge-integration/

For all practical purposes of integration, it is enough to consider ##dx## as just a notation which determines what the integration variable is, because all others, which don't change with ##x## are constants.
But u substitution uses dx beyond that.

If we want to integrate something like

int2x/(x^2+1)dx

you set up a u substitution

u = x^2 + 1
du = 2xdx

And then you replace the 2xdx in the original integral with du.

So dx and du are being used in ways other than just to define what we’re integrating with respect to. All of calculus makes sense to me up until the point where we start using differentials in ways that aren’t to define what we’re integrating with respect to or in the form of something like dy/dx.
 
  • #9
'd' is a difference in some measurement, 'x' just means 'something'.
You could be unconventional and call it d:H, but you won't be thanked for that.
 
  • #10
FS98 said:
But u substitution uses dx beyond that.

If we want to integrate something like

int2x/(x^2+1)dx

you set up a u substitution

u = x^2 + 1
Which is indeed ##u(x)=x^2+1##, that is a function, that depends on the variable ##x##.
du = 2xdx

And then you replace the 2xdx in the original integral with du.
Which is due to the chain rule. We have ##[f(g(x))]' = f\,'(g(x))\cdot g'(x)##. Now write ##u(x)=u## instead of ##g(x)##.
So dx and du are being used in ways other than just to define what we’re integrating with respect to.
No. We just changed horses and adjusted the way to ride to the kind of horse we have. In both cases they signal the integration variable, but as we didn't simply wrote ##u## for ##x## but substituted an entire expression in ##x## by just a ##u##, we had to adjust ##dx## as well. Maybe the better comparison is, that we changed the scaling on our ##x-## axis and this affects the measurement of our width, which had been in ##x-## units and is now in ##u-##units. This is different from just renaming it. Afterwards, we end up with an expression, where ##du## denotes the integration variable again, now along the ##u-##axis.
All of calculus makes sense to me up until the point where we start using differentials in ways that aren’t to define what we’re integrating with respect to or in the form of something like dy/dx.
Edit: Let's take an example. We want to calculate the distance traveled in time ##0## to ##60\,sec## at a velocity of ##2\,m## per second. Then we have
$$
distance \,= \int_{t=0}^{t=60} v(t)\,dt = \int_{0\,sec}^{60\,sec} 2\,\frac{m}{sec} dt = 2\,m \cdot (60 - 0) = 120\,m
$$
Now change the seconds to minutes. You cannot go ahead with ##dt## measured in seconds anymore, you'll have to rescale it to minutes, too, for otherwise the units wouldn't fit anymore.
 
Last edited:
  • #11
fresh_42 said:
Which is indeed ##u(x)=x^2+1##, that is a function, that depends on the variable ##x##.

Which is due to the chain rule. We have ##[f(g(x))]' = f\,'(g(x))\cdot g'(x)##. Now write ##u(x)=u## instead of ##g(x)##.

No. We just changed horses and adjusted the way to ride to the kind of horse we have. In both cases they signal the integration variable, but as we didn't simply wrote ##u## for ##x## but substituted an entire expression in ##x## by just a ##u##, we had to adjust ##dx## as well. Maybe the better comparison is, that we changed the scaling on our ##x-## axis and this affects the measurement of our width, which had been in ##x-## units and is now in ##u-##units. This is different from just renaming it. Afterwards, we end up with an expression, where ##du## denotes the integration variable again, now along the ##u-##axis.

Edit: Let's take an example. We want to calculate the distance traveled in time ##0## to ##60\,sec## at a velocity of ##2\,m## per second. Then we have
$$
distance \,= \int_{t=0}^{t=60} v(t)\,dt = \int_{0\,sec}^{60\,sec} 2\,\frac{m}{sec} dt = 2\,m \cdot (60 - 0) = 120\,m
$$
Now change the seconds to minutes. You cannot go ahead with ##dt## measured in seconds anymore, you'll have to rescale it to minutes, too, for otherwise the units wouldn't fit anymore.
It still feels like those differentials a being used in ways that I’m totally unfamiliar with.

I understand that something like dy/dx is shorthand for the limit definition of a derivative.

I also understand that something followed by dx with an integral sign in front of it is shorthand for a Riemann sum as the value of n approaches infinity.

I have no idea what dx means outside of these 2 things. I’m able to use it in some situations such as u substitution because I’ve seen examples done, but I have no idea what it actually means outside of knowing that a couple different expressions involving dx are shorthand for something that I do understand.
 
  • #12
FS98 said:
I have no idea what dx means outside of these 2 things. I’m able to use it in some situations such as u substitution because I’ve seen examples done, but I have no idea what it actually means outside of knowing that a couple different expressions involving dx are shorthand for something that I do understand.
If you want the full dose, then you'll find it here:
https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/the-pantheon-of-derivatives-i/
You can consider ##dx## as a basis vector of the tangent space. Of course for functions ##f \, : \,\mathbb{R} \longrightarrow \mathbb{R}## this will be the only basis vector, as tangents in this case are always lines.
 

1. What is the difference between dx and dy/dx?

Dx and dy/dx are both mathematical notations used in calculus to denote the derivative of a function. However, dx represents the infinitesimal change in the independent variable (x) while dy/dx represents the rate of change of the function with respect to x. In simpler terms, dx is the change in x while dy/dx is the change in y over the change in x.

2. Can dx and dy/dx be used interchangeably?

No, they cannot be used interchangeably. While dx represents an infinitesimal change in x, dy/dx represents the slope of the tangent line to the curve at a specific point. They have different meanings and cannot be interchanged in calculations.

3. How do you calculate dx and dy/dx?

To calculate dx, you take the derivative of the function with respect to x. To calculate dy/dx, you take the derivative of the function with respect to x and then substitute the value of x at a specific point into the derivative equation.

4. What does dx mean in an integral?

In an integral, dx is used as part of the notation to represent the infinitesimal change in the independent variable (x). It is placed after the function being integrated to indicate which variable is being integrated with respect to.

5. Can dx and dy/dx have different values?

Yes, dx and dy/dx can have different values. This is because while dx represents the change in x, dy/dx represents the rate of change of the function at a specific point. Therefore, they will have different values unless the function is a constant or a straight line.

Similar threads

Replies
1
Views
2K
  • General Math
Replies
13
Views
2K
Replies
13
Views
514
  • General Math
Replies
22
Views
2K
Replies
10
Views
952
  • General Math
2
Replies
41
Views
3K
  • Science and Math Textbooks
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • Classical Physics
Replies
6
Views
1K
Replies
49
Views
7K
  • General Math
Replies
13
Views
1K
Back
Top