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[jim hardy]

Things are changing a little now, with books like those of Robert Kiyosaki.

I read Kyosaki's "Rich Dad Poor Dad" and gave copies to my kids.

Another author named "Dave Ramsey " teaches the evils of debt. I first heard him on daytime talk radio . My nephew's high school in Springfield Missiuri used Ramsey's material to teach the kids basics about money management and living within one's means.

I hope a groundswell erupts.

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/credit/

 

[WWGD]

I read Kyosaki's "Rich Dad Poor Dad" and gave copies to my kids.

Another author named "Dave Ramsey " teaches the evils of debt. I first heard him on daytime talk radio . My nephew's high school in Springfield Missiuri used Ramsey's material to teach the kids basics about money management and living within one's means.

I hope a groundswell erupts.

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/credit/

Agreed. Still, not likely to have an eruption when people say/believe things like: " I like Google/Hotmail, it's free" , and there is no discussion on who the data provided belongs to, other than the BS on companies using it to improve its productivity ( possibly true) , and passing on the improvements(possibly true) and lowered costs ( not likely true) to consumers. It would be nice to have a Kiyosaki-style book on personal data.

 

[StoneTemplePython]

In here, the difference is they screw you white-collar, with a smile. They don't teach you in high school the basic financial education that would allow you to free yourself from living paycheck-to-paycheck, and instead, they condition you to conduct your finances in such a way as to make it easier for others to gain access to your money and keep you on your knees. All with a smile and (only thinly-veiled) pretense of decency. Things are changing a little now, with books like those of Robert Kiyosaki.

ummm... is this a joke that I'm not getting?

For instance, see this thread:

https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/whats-your-opinion-about-robert-kiyosakis-books.933929/

 

[StoneTemplePython]

I read Kyosaki's "Rich Dad Poor Dad" and gave copies to my kids.

Another author named "Dave Ramsey " teaches the evils of debt. I first heard him on daytime talk radio . My nephew's high school in Springfield Missiuri used Ramsey's material to teach the kids basics about money management and living within one's means.

I hope a groundswell erupts.

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/credit/

The PBS show is fine as are most things on Frontline...

otherwise I feel like I stepped into the twilight zone today.

Kyosaki is a brazen promoter / 'guru' offering questionable advice. See link I just posted.

Dave Ramsey is another 'guru' who was cut down at length in this thread:
https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/financial-knowledge-all-adults-should-know.916758/

If people want to set up a new separate thread on financial literacy, that may be smart and I have a suspicion that @russ_watters would help.

I always spooks me when numerate people get basic financial literacy wrong.

 

[WWGD]

ummm... is this a joke that I'm not getting?

For instance, see this thread:

https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/whats-your-opinion-about-robert-kiyosakis-books.933929/

My bad, I should have done better research. At least it lays out some basics I was not even aware of. EDIT: Sorry for dishing out negativity. Still, is Kiyosaki wrong on most counts, or is it just his investment advice ?

 

[russ_watters]

...I feel like I stepped into the twilight zone today.

Kyosaki...

Dave Ramsey is another 'guru' who was cut down at length in this thread...

If people want to set up a new separate thread on financial literacy, that may be smart and I have a suspicion that @russ_watters would help.

I always spooks me when numerate people get basic financial literacy wrong.

Ramsey doesn't bother me much because the people who tune-in to his message are probably people for whom it will be helpful. It's simplistic and overall sub-optimal, but if you're drowning in debt or at risk of it, it's a step in the right direction.

Kiyosaki, on the other hand, is just barely able to stay out of jail. He's particularly vile because he uses the idea of providing knowledge and power to those who don't have it as a way to gain peoples' trust so he can defraud them. To me that's worse than a gunpoint mugging.

I'd certainly be open to re-opening or continuing a financial advice thread. It's a passion of mine for the same reason others have said; it's a huge hole in most peoples' education and I just can't understand why high schools and colleges are ignoring it. It should be required at both levels. High school should teach basics that everyone needs whereas colleges should teach major-related personal economics (e.g., an artist needs to deal with different personal economic realities than an engineer).

Incidentally, 3000 posts in this thread and I don't think I've opened it before, much less posted in it...

 

[StoneTemplePython]

Still, is Kiyosaki wrong on most counts, or is it just his investment advice ?

Charles Munger, Buffett's business partner for the past 50 + years, has a saying:

When you mix raisins and turds, you've still got turds

(reference: 2000 Berkshire Shareholder Meeting)

Translation to the matter at hand: I wouldn't consider eating anything being served by Kiyosaki.

 

[WWGD]

Charles Munger, Buffett's business partner for the past 50 + years, has a saying:(reference: 2000 Berkshire Shareholder Meeting)

Translation to the matter at hand: I wouldn't consider eating anything being served by Kiyosaki.

I am not sure I agree, one ( Speaking Kiyosaki here) may draw incorrect conclusion from correct premises.

 

[russ_watters]

I am not sure I agree, one ( Speaking Kiyosaki here) may draw incorrect conclusion from correct premises.

I don't see the upside. Sure, you could always sift through the turds, extract the raisins, and then clean and eat them, but why would you do that when you can just buy certified turd-free raisins? Not only does it save time and effort, but it ensures you don't have to worry that your cleaning process might have missed some turd.

 

[WWGD]

I don't see the upside. Sure, you could always sift through the turds, extract the raisins, and then clean and eat them, but why would you do that when you can just buy certified turd-free raisins? Not only does it save time and effort, but it ensures you don't have to worry that your cleaning process might have missed some turd.

Ok, good point. Any financial advice raisins you can refer?

 

[russ_watters]

Ok, good point.

Actually, thinking about it more, it is worse than raisins in turds because the target audience is people who don't know about and want to learn the subject. So they aren't equipped to know how to identify what is turd and what isn't. I think that makes it more like separating turds from chocolate pudding.

Any financial advice raisins you can refer?

It depends on what aspect of personal finance you're wanting to learn about. I think most people know something about the day-to-day basics, so they may not be trying to learn those, but I do still see certain, common mistakes (like taking small amounts of money out of an ATM at a time, which increases your ATM fees). But:

For investing for retirement, I like "The Only Investment Guide You'll Ever Need". It's partly advice but mostly an encyclopedia of investment concepts (what's an annuity? What's the difference between term and whole life insurance?). And the advice is easy/sensible/basic: get rich mostly by doing nothing, not by some complicated scheme.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/0544781937/?tag=pfamazon01-20

For broader personal finance guidance, yet targeted at a particular life stage, I also like this "Idiots Guide to Personal Finance in your 20s and 30s". It's been a while since I read it, but my recollection is it is more life-stage applicable suff like how to buy your first house.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/0028643747/?tag=pfamazon01-20

 

[WWGD]

Actually, thinking about it more, it is worse than raisins in turds because the target audience is people who don't know about and want to learn the subject. So they aren't equipped to know how to identify what is turd and what isn't. I think that makes it more like separating turds from chocolate pudding.

I

Well, yes, you are right overall, but I was thinking that if someone who does know finances would tell me that they read Kiyosaki _and_ they believed the part of the book that does not include investing was well-written, I would use this. Not that I would read the book and try to determine on my own whether the overall advice was good.

 

[StoneTemplePython]

Well, yes, you are right overall, but I was thinking that if someone who does know finances would tell me that they read Kiyosaki _and_ they believed the part of the book that does not include investing was well-written, I would use this. Not that I would read the book and try to determine on my own whether the overall advice was good.

a couple thoughts here

1.) I am concerned that you are used to dealing with 'nice' domains. You may want to look up Phil Tetlock and the "Expert Problem" that is endemic in most everywhere outside STEM. (Note: his views have become a bit more nuanced in a recent years and you can see this in his book and interviews around Superforecasters, but the general idea stands.)

A lot of people who work in finance mean well... but are not really experts. So be careful from where you get your advice. My own two cents would be to first educate yourself on investing from Swensen's Unconventional Success. Swensen has run Yale's endowment in a way that individual investors cannot emulate and arguably other endowments should not try to emulate. Thankfully this book is not at all about that, and really is a lot more basic, even boring.

2.) There is a shockingly close parallel between personal finance on one side, and health and nutrition on the other. Outside of elite circles --if you're in the 'Olympics', you'd know-- it's really basic stuff, that is kind of boring that works. It tends to take a lot of patience and disciplined effort over a long time horizon. This is not what sells with the general public. Nor is it what most 'experts' push.

 

[russ_watters]

Well, yes, you are right overall, but I was thinking that if someone who does know finances would tell me that they read Kiyosaki _and_ they believed the part of the book that does not include investing was well-written, I would use this.

I think you may have trouble finding people who understand the subject well who are willing to read such a book. Your best bet may be professional reviewers. Here's one I found with a qhick google:
https://www.thesimpledollar.com/deconstructing-robert-kiyosaki/

But again, I don't understand why you would want to bother with this. Can you explain what the upside you are seeing is? Grave danger, I see.

 

[russ_watters]

You may want to look up Phil Tetlock and the "Expert Problem" that is endemic in most everywhere outside STEM...

2.) There is a shockingly close parallel between personal finance on one side, and health and nutrition on the other. Outside of elite circles --if you're in the 'Olympics', you'd know-- it's really basic stuff, that is kind of boring that works. It tends to take a lot of patience and disciplined effort over a long time horizon. This is not what sells with the general public. Nor is it what most 'experts' push.

I so totally agree. The slow and boring thing is easy and it works, but it requires discipline, which people either don't have or hope they can circumvent.

[vent] On fitness/nutrition: I'm sick and tired of my overweight friends lamenting how "easy" it is for me to stay thin. It *IS* easy. You know wha the main thing I did today was? Instead of going to McDonalds for lunch (which I used to do; every day), I ate a Protein Bar! Simple!

The other side of the coin is that I work out. The term "working out" implies work, but it isn't hard: you just have to go to the gym. And when you're there, do *anything*.

The main downside of the gym isn't that it is hard, it is that it is time consuming and boring. Solution? A stationary bike in front of a TV!
[/vent]

[edit] Oh, and the other part of that is the 'all but STEM' part. STEM has clear-cut right answers and professional standards that these other professions don't have. Essentially, in order to call myself an expert in my field I need a license from the government! And most things I do have specific standards. E.G., an office requires a specific amount of ventilation. There's very little to argue about or make myself sound smarter than anyone else about there because the equation for it is written in a code book.

 

[jim hardy]

It would be nice to have a Kiyosaki-style book on personal data.

Common sense seems to be gone.
When i was a kid we used the phrase "Might as well broadcast it over the radio" to describe the absurdity of speaking something even mildly confidential. Internet is worse than radio because unlike sound it's there forever.

I always spooks me when numerate people get basic financial literacy wrong.

Reading Rich Dad Poor Dad i was able to compare myself to my old college roommate. I tinkered with old boats while he tinkered with old houses. Needless to say our relative net worths today are the proverbial mountain and molehill...
I've not read Kyosaki's other books so can't comment. Maybe he did write some garbage , cashing in on success of his first book. That's marketing.
I do feel kids need to be taught the difference between capital and operating money, and the evils of credit cards and debt. Ramsey and Kyosaki do that at level suitable for twenty-somethings who aren't financially astute. Twenty-somethings just don't have fifty years of hindsight on which to base life's decisions..

Not that amassing wealth should be everybody's lifetime aspiration..
Edgar Lee Masters put these two snips of life on facing pages for some reason:

A great little read and probably in your local library.
https://www.neh.gov/humanities/2015...-banned-spoon-river-anthology-made-comeback-i

old jim

 

[WWGD]

a couple thoughts here

1.) I am concerned that you are used to dealing with 'nice' domains. You may want to look up Phil Tetlock and the "Expert Problem" that is endemic in most everywhere outside STEM. (Note: his views have become a bit more nuanced in a recent years and you can see this in his book and interviews around Superforecasters, but the general idea stands.)

A lot of people who work in finance mean well... but are not really experts. So be careful from where you get your advice. My own two cents would be to first educate yourself on investing from Swensen's Unconventional Success. Swensen has run Yale's endowment in a way that individual investors cannot emulate and arguably other endowments should not try to emulate. Thankfully this book is not at all about that, and really is a lot more basic, even boring.

2.) There is a shockingly close parallel between personal finance on one side, and health and nutrition on the other. Outside of elite circles --if you're in the 'Olympics', you'd know-- it's really basic stuff, that is kind of boring that works. It tends to take a lot of patience and disciplined effort over a long time horizon. This is not what sells with the general public. Nor is it what most 'experts' push.

1) Well, no, I am not fixated on Kiyosaki, or other "experts"/stars. I could accept advice from anyone who is reliable. My point is I do not want to reinvent the wheel and do all sorts of research on my own when others have already trod that road. I am asking for others to suggest so I can narrow the choices when I conduct my subsequent research re others' suggestions. I may have not paid enough attention to this area, and I do not want to start from scratch unless it is necessary. I don't see any sense in not availing myself from others' experience , as long as I am evaluating it critically. EDIT: I am taking advice from people who are, overall, knowledgeable, reasonable and well-educated, as the average seems to be on this site. It would seem foolish not to , if the alternative is to do all the research work for myself from scratch, which would take more resources than I would like to allot to, without, necessarily, better results..

2) I have no health issues whatsoever. Maybe I am an outlier. So, no, I don't have a chronic, systematic problem disciplining myself. It is difficult to apply discipline when things are off-whack. Not impossible, but difficult.

 

[russ_watters]

Reading Rich Dad Poor Dad i was able to compare myself to my old college roommate. I tinkered with old boats while he tinkered with old houses. Needless to say our relative net worths today are the proverbial mountain and molehill...
I've not read Kyosaki's other books so can't comment.

Could you be more specific though about Rich Dad Poor Dad? It might be useful to @WWGD and I'm curious too: what specific knowledge or advice did you learn from the book that you were able to apply to your financial planning? For my part, the first book I referenced taught me some valuable things that I use:

1. Being frugal has the same impact on your finances as making more money.
2. Start saving early.
3. Compounding interest (investment return) is awesome.
4. The stock market is safer than most people think.
5. "Safe" investments have a hidden-in-plain-sight risk: the risk of not making enough return.

Not that amassing wealth should be everybody's lifetime aspiration...

Well it does have to be one of our primary life aspirations if we want to maintain our standard of living through retirement.

 

[WWGD]

Could you be more specific though about Rich Dad Poor Dad? It might be useful to @WWGD and I'm curious too: what specific knowledge or advice did you learn from the book that you were able to apply to your financial planning? For my part, the first book I referenced taught me some valuable things that I use:

1. Being frugal has the same impact on your finances as making more money.
2. Start saving early.
3. Compounding interest (investment return) is awesome.
4. The stock market is safer than most people think.
5. "Safe" investments have a hidden-in-plain-sight risk: the risk of not making enough return.

Well it does have to be one of our primary life aspirations if we want to maintain our standard of living through retirement.

Thanks, I am not deeply in the hole, just not quite where I would like to be. I do accept my responsibility, and I do spend conservatively, spending on little more than food clothing and shelter.

 

[WWGD]

I so totally agree. The slow and boring thing is easy and it works, but it requires discipline, which people either don't have or hope they can circumvent.

[vent] On fitness/nutrition: I'm sick and tired of my overweight friends lamenting how "easy" it is for me to stay thin. It *IS* easy. You know wha the main thing I did today was? Instead of going to McDonalds for lunch (which I used to do; every day), I ate a Protein Bar! Simple!

The other side of the coin is that I work out. The term "working out" implies work, but it isn't hard: you just have to go to the gym. And when you're there, do *anything*.

The main downside of the gym isn't that it is hard, it is that it is time consuming and boring. Solution? A stationary bike in front of a TV!
[/vent]

.

I have no weight problems either, still, do you think your case generalizes well-enough?

 

[fresh_42]

I just incidentally found this gem which sort of fits.
I translated it with Google so I might have missed some corrections.

Economy - understandably explained on the basis of two cows

• Conservative

You own two cows. Your neighbor has none.
You keep one and give the other to your poor neighbor.
After that, you regret it.

• Socialist

You own two cows. Your neighbor has none.
The government takes one from you and gives it to your neighbor.
You are forced to set up a cooperative to help your neighbor with animal husbandry.

• Democrat

You own two cows. Your neighbor has none.
You feel guilty because you work successfully.
You choose people in the government who tax your cows.
This forces you to sell a cow to pay the taxes.
The people you choose take this money, buy a cow and give it to your neighbor.
You feel righteous. Lady Gaga sings for you.

• Libertarian

You own two cows. Your neighbor has none.
So what?

• Communist

You own two cows. Your neighbor has none.
The government confiscates both cows and sells the milk.
You stand for hours for the milk. It's spoiled.

• Capitalist

You own two cows. You sell one and buy a bull,
to breed a herd.

• EU bureaucracy

You own two cows.
The EU takes both of them, pays you compensation, kills one, milks the other,
pays you compensation and pours the milk into the North Sea.

• American company

You own two cows.
You sell one and lease it back. You found a corporation.
You force the two cows to give four times more milk.
You wonder when one drops dead.
You issue a press release stating that you have reduced your costs by 50%.
Your stocks are rising.

• French company

You own two cows.
You go on strike because they want three cows.
You are going to have lunch.
Life is Beautiful.

• Japanese company

You own two cows.
Using state-of-the-art genetic engineering, you can reduce the animals
to one-tenth of their original size and give them 20 times more milk.
Now you create a clever cow cartoon, call it cow kimono and sell it worldwide.

• German company

You own two cows.
Using state-of-the-art genetic engineering, the animals are re-designed so that they are all blond,
drink a lot of beer, give milk of the highest quality and can run 160 km / h.
Unfortunately, the cows require 13 weeks of holiday a year.

• British company

You own two cows. Both are mad.

• Italian company

You have two cows, but you do not know where they are.
As you search for them, you see a beautiful woman.
You have lunch break.
Life is Beautiful.

 

[StoneTemplePython]

1) Well, no, I am not fixated on Kiyosaki, or other "experts"/stars. I could accept advice from anyone who is reliable. My point is I do not want to reinvent the wheel and do all sorts of research on my own when others have already trod that road...

Absolutely. Learning vicariously is quite smart. It's just a bit more messy in domains with expert problems.

2) I have no health issues whatsoever. Maybe I am an outlier. So, no, I don't have a chronic, systematic problem disciplining myself.

My point on 2 was intended more toward the industry -- i.e. in some industries you have to hold onto your wallet when 'experts' show up. To my mind there's a curious similarity/ pattern between the way the personal financial industry and the health and fitness industry work. That's all.
- - - -
That being said, I have been doing a mediocre job about getting to the gym, but Russ has inspired me to go tonight, so I'm off.

 

[WWGD]

- - - -
That being said, I have been doing a mediocre job about getting to the gym, but Russ has inspired me to go tonight, so I'm off.

Another badge for Russ! Gym Whisperer?

 

[Psinter]

I will finally be able to throw out my knee pads ;).*

When there's so much month at the end of the money.

Incidentally, 3000 posts in this thread and I don't think I've opened it before, much less posted in it...

When Evo is gone (many may be sad ), who's going to open Random Thoughts? Greg?

 

[russ_watters]

I have no weight problems either, still, do you think your case generalizes well-enough?

I don't understand what you are asking.

 

[Psinter]

I did this so many times as a kid before saying something to friends at school. Unless they say "what" they might not be listening.

Spoiler: Gif inside spoiler

Russ. Russ! RUSS! Ruuuuuuuuussss! Just kidding.

 

[Richie Smash]

Is science an art?

 

[WWGD]

I don't understand what you are asking.

I mean, your experiences in being able to control weight, etc. They have worked for you, but this may just be a coincidence and may not generalize, i.e., there may be large numbers of people who may also work out and skip meals when they are hungry and yet not be able to lose weight.

 

[StoneTemplePython]

I mean, your experiences in being able to control weight, etc. They have worked for you, but this may just be a coincidence and may not generalize, i.e., there may be large numbers of people who may also work out and skip meals when they are hungry and yet not be able to lose weight.

FWIW, I read it the other way: i.e. I thought Russ wasn't trying to induct from his experience, but instead illustrate basic well understood principles being applied.

Specifically: making a habit on most days of subbing out McDonalds for almost anything else for lunch gives a health improvement. (I'd suggest eating some nuts plus either oatmeal or a salad though instead of a protein bar but I digress.) Also getting basic activity in most days gives a health improvement. This doesn't mean you'll be in great shape -- but it puts you on the path to being in shape. I suppose one could say he overstated things somewhat, but the ethos is right.

Goldacre's Bad Science was a book of the year in The Economist a decade ago, and discusses these basic things while attacking pseudo-science (mostly the supplement industry in this case). It's short and perhaps glib, but an easy, informative, entertaining read aimed at defending science from pseudo-science. It seems germane to this posting and these forums in general.

 

[WWGD]

FWIW, I read it the other way: i.e. I thought Russ wasn't trying to induct from his experience, but instead illustrate basic well understood principles being applied.

Specifically: making a habit on most days of subbing out McDonalds for almost anything else for lunch gives a health improvement. (I'd suggest eating some nuts plus either oatmeal or a salad though instead of a protein bar but I digress.) Also getting basic activity in most days gives a health improvement. This doesn't mean you'll be in great shape -- but it puts you on the path to being in shape. I suppose one could say he overstated things somewhat, but the ethos is right.

Goldacre's Bad Science was a book of the year in The Economist a decade ago, and discusses these basic things while attacking pseudo-science (mostly the supplement industry in this case). It's short and perhaps glib, but an easy, informative, entertaining read aimed at defending science from pseudo-science. It seems germane to this posting and these forums in general.

I agree that this is good advice , just that it is necessary, but not sufficient.