What is the newest installment of 'Random Thoughts' on Physics Forums?

[Astronuc]

Interesting perspective - Humans Have Broken One of The Natural Power Laws Governing Earth's Oceans
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/tech...ower-laws-governing-Earth's-oceans/ar-AAQBKBt

The global ocean size spectrum from bacteria to whales​

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.abh3732

 

[WWGD]

Just met someone , the type of " Glass in 99.9% empty". Wants to talk to me each time he sees me. I need a long nap afterwards.

 

[fresh_42]

Just met someone , the type of " Glass in 99.9% empty". Wants to talk to me each time he sees me. I need a long nap afterwards.

Save time and take it during.

I would quote Douglas Adams by what he said about how he invented Marvin the paranoid android but you haven't read him.

 

[fresh_42]

Interesting game. Whenever the ball is in the end zone, it is an interception. End of 3rd quarter: 0-3. And they say soccer is boring for its lack of goals.

 

[WWGD]

Strange. Microwave functions , swivel rotates, but food does not get warmed up. Just charged my phone in the same outlet. Edit: Someone seriously suggested I test the diodes. But I first need to move the spectrometer out if the way. Do they think I have a lab at home?

 

[fresh_42]

For all lunatics: have a view in the sky tomorrow night!

https://phys.org/news/2021-11-longest-lunar-eclipse-centuries-week.html

 

[WWGD]

I can imagine someone who's doing their math thesis issuing all math challenges to get free research towards their degree.

 

[ergospherical]

A fun thing to think about is, why does water fall out of an upside-down bucket, given that atmospheric pressure ($\times$ interface area) pushing up on it from below is much, much larger than the weight of the water...

 

[WWGD]

Or if people use refrigerators in Siberia in Winter. Do they use them to warm up food?

 

[collinsmark]

A fun thing to think about is, why does water fall out of an upside-down bucket, given that atmospheric pressure ($\times$ interface area) pushing up on it from below is much, much larger than the weight of the water...

 

[ergospherical]

Nice, yes. The question is what exactly results in the instability of the air-water interface...

 

[collinsmark]

Nice, yes. The question is what exactly results in the instability of the air-water interface...

There's some math for that! (Actually, it's physics, but Brady Haran put this in the Numberphile series rather than the Sixty Symbols.)

 

[ergospherical]

How long can chicken be left unrefrigerated? I've cooked a little chicken/rice thing and need it to survive in a tupperware for about 14 or so hours in my bag... is that unreasonably long?

 

[Haborix]

How long can chicken be left unrefrigerated? I've cooked a little chicken/rice thing and need it to survive in a tupperware for about 14 or so hours in my bag... is that unreasonably long?

That sounds like a long time. I think general advice is no more than 1-2 hours. Personally, I wouldn't try your scenario.

 

[ergospherical]

Yeah this sucks, I'll just make a sandwich or something.

 

[fresh_42]

How long can chicken be left unrefrigerated? I've cooked a little chicken/rice thing and need it to survive in a tupperware for about 14 or so hours in my bag... is that unreasonably long?

Once it has been heated the usual suspects (salmonella) are destroyed. If you wrap it in or simply add a paper towel for the moisture, then I see no problem. I would eat it. However, the only chapter I remember from my English book at school was: "I have the stomach of an ox."

Maybe the window ledge is a good alternative to a refridgerator. Should be could enough in the UK at the moment.

 

[WWGD]

Yeah this sucks, I'll just make a sandwich or something.

How about using a Thermos?

 

[ergospherical]

How about using a Thermos?

Please elaborate...

 

[BillTre]

Please elaborate...

 

[fresh_42]

I ate (and eat) a day-old raw ground beef and never had problems. And a cooked meal will remain eatable within a day.

 

[DaveE]

Freeze it first?

 

[ergospherical]

View attachment 292724

Oh alright, I thought he was talking about the flasks you fill with hot chocolate and other warm beverages. Couldn't quite figure out how I was going to force the chicken through the nozzle.

 

[Frabjous]

For me, it was a price/quality thing.

I just didn't find Blu-rays worth it over DVDs for the price/quality difference.

I'm curious, though, why some people still buy and collect records. Is there a unique sound they like from them? Are they like collectible "antiques" that may have future rare art-like value? etc.

I like that they are tactile.

 

[WWGD]

Oh alright, I thought he was talking about the flasks you fill with hot chocolate and other warm beverages. Couldn't quite figure out how I was going to force the chicken through the nozzle.

Many have a removable cap that you unscrew by moving it counterclockwise.

 

[jedishrfu]

A freezer bag with one or two freezer packs (flat plastic bottle with water inside placed in a freezer beforehand to freeze) should refrigerate your food for several hours.

 

[ergospherical]

I thought this was funny; a 3D printed, meat-free steak endorsed by (legendary) chef Marco Pierre White
https://www.veganfoodandliving.com/news/marco-pierre-white-to-sell-3d-printed-vegan-steak/

Has anybody ever considered a vegetarian/vegan diet, either temporarily or more long term? Do the sustainability/health (?)/animal-welfare aspects outweigh the lack of variety (i.e. more difficult to obtain required nutrients, protein, etc.) and/or enjoyment of eating meat?

Surely it isn't long now until meat-alternatives become indistinguishable from real meat (for all practical purposes). Will be interesting to observe how diets shift in the next 50-100 years; maybe we will all be eating insects by then. Food for thought!

 

[WWGD]

I thought this was funny; a 3D printed, meat-free steak endorsed by (legendary) chef Marco Pierre White
https://www.veganfoodandliving.com/news/marco-pierre-white-to-sell-3d-printed-vegan-steak/

Has anybody ever considered a vegetarian/vegan diet, either temporarily or more long term? Do the sustainability/health (?)/animal-welfare aspects outweigh the lack of variety (i.e. more difficult to obtain required nutrients, protein, etc.) and/or enjoyment of eating meat?

Surely it isn't long now until meat-alternatives become indistinguishable from real meat (for all practical purposes). Will be interesting to observe how diets shift in the next 50-100 years; maybe we will all be eating insects by then. Food for thought!

As I understand it, vegan diets are not necessarily any more sustainable nor cruelty-free. Cutting down forests to grow crops destroys habitats for some animals. Pesticides and fertilizers ; tractors and combines kill animals as well. Cattle is ( ideally) fed in lands that do not serve agricultural nor other purposes. But my research on this is cursory so I cannot stand bt it 100%. As with just about everything else, issue has become politicized and it's difficult to tell what's what at times.

 

[ergospherical]

Although I’m most definitely not a vegetarian, it’s hard to deny that meat consumption is vastly more unsustainable both in terms of land requirements, deforestation (e.g. cattle ranching), resource/energy requirements and emissions. Although you do have a point about pesticides!

Personally I don’t think I’d be prepared to switch to a vegetarian diet, but meat alternatives might make that more attractive in years to come. And these sorts of innovations will be all the more important with projected future population growth / rising global standard of living.

 

[WWGD]

As I understand it, vegan diets are not necessarily any more sustainable nor cruelty-free. Cutting down forests to grow crops destroys habitats for some animals. Pesticides and fertilizers ; tractors and combines kill animals as well. Cattle is ( ideally) fed in lands that do not serve agricultural nor other purposes. But my research on this is cursory so I cannot stand bt it 100%. As with just about everything else, issue has become politicized and it's difficult to tell what's what at times.

I welcome rebuttals with specifics.

 

[BillTre]

I lived in a house with vegetarians for a couple of years.
While I found the diet different, if you are doing it with someone who knows vegetarian cuisine, it doesn't have to be boring or taste bad. Another reason to do this with a knowledgeable person is to avoid nutritional problems due to some foods lacking certain nutrients. Everything will easier if you doing it with someone experienced.

Although I like beef, cattle are not a good use of land and resources for the amount of food produced.

I doubt that 3D printed food or vegie meats will be cheaper than the real thing very soon. IIts pretty easy to grow and slaughter an animal. The animal does most of the work.

 

[fresh_42]

It is the water, and crop consumption plus the methane that ruins the balance. Mealworms are an alternative. But as long as the US, India, and China run on coal, and our global transport systems all rely heavily on oil, I see no need to change my own behavior: knock its horns, wipe its aXX and throw it on the plate.

It is like demanding from a fly to reduce its sugar consumption in order to reduce global sugar consumption.

 

[BillTre]

Mealworms are an alternative.

Any non-warm blooded animal will make better use of turning environmental resources into food than a warm blooded one (like mammals, such as cow, pigs, sheep).
A warm blooded animal will use about 10x the food of a cold blooded one because it uses energy to maintain a high body temperature.
At least some insects have fatty acids that are better for you also.

 

[WWGD]

There are still issues on the availability of arable land . Is there enough arable land in most parts of the world to provide a vegetarian/vegan diet for all? Certainly not in the middle east and most of Asia outside the South ( India, Bangladesh , mostly) How about those countries that have seasons so that you cannot grow crops all year?
Edit: It may be just me, but I have a psychological need to eat meat during winters. Notice vegetarian countries are those with no winters. A veg diet fits their climate and availability of arable land.

 

[fresh_42]

There are still issues on the availability of arable land . Is there enough arable land in most parts of the world to provide a vegetarian/vegan diet for all? Certainly not in the middle east and most of Asia outside the South ( India, Bangladesh , mostly) How about those countries that have seasons so that you cannot grow crops all year?

Would be interesting to see a map where Chinese investors have bought land since 2,000. I guess such a map is closer to a correct answer than any we can give.

Your calculation lacks evidence. The top 4 cattle producers are also the top 4 soybean producers. And if you can grow soybeans, you can also grow lupine.

 

[hmmm27]

Bought some "veggie burgers" (the large print on the box), turns out they were "100% vegan" (the fine print)... tasted like what I imagine used motor oil tastes like. Unpleasant.

 

[WWGD]

Bought some "veggie burgers" (the large print on the box), turns out they were "100% vegan" (the fine print)... tasted like what I imagine used motor oil tastes like. Unpleasant.

Better than mine: like orange juice after brushing my teeth. I'll skip and leave it for those who know: Indian chefs.

 

[ergospherical]

This page has some interesting statistics and analysis:
https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets
In particular, they note that beef, mutton and dairy require significantly more cropland than poultry and fish; so perhaps it's not necessary to stop eating all meat!

It is the water, and crop consumption plus the methane that ruins the balance. Mealworms are an alternative. But as long as the US, India, and China run on coal, and our global transport systems all rely heavily on oil, I see no need to change my own behavior: knock its horns, wipe its aXX and throw it on the plate.

It is like demanding from a fly to reduce its sugar consumption in order to reduce global sugar consumption.

Exactly, yes! It's hard for me to convince myself that any change I make to my individual lifestyle will cause anything but an utterly negligible benefit to the environment. Moreover, it's fairly well documented that, for example, energy companies promote rhetoric about "individual action" to divert public attention away from their own comparatively hugely destructive behaviours, e.g. https://www.vox.com/22429551/climate-change-crisis-exxonmobil-harvard-study.

On the flip-side, vegetarianism/veganism has become fairly trendy (at least in some parts of the UK...), with about half a million new vegans last year. That's not an insignificant change!

 

[WWGD]

This page has some interesting statistics and analysis:
https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets
In particular, they note that beef, mutton and dairy require significantly more cropland than poultry and fish; so perhaps it's not necessary to stop eating all meat!

Exactly, yes! It's hard for me to convince myself that any change I make to my individual lifestyle will cause anything but an utterly negligible benefit to the environment. Moreover, it's fairly well documented that, for example, energy companies promote rhetoric about "individual action" to divert public attention away from their own comparatively hugely destructive behaviours, e.g. https://www.vox.com/22429551/climate-change-crisis-exxonmobil-harvard-study.

On the flip-side, vegetarianism/veganism has become fairly trendy (at least in some parts of the UK...), with about half a million new vegans last year. That's not an insignificant change!

The thing is that , at least in theory, cattle is made to graze in the types of lands that do not serve much of other purposes. In that sense they do not, or at least should not, take much of any crop land.
Edit: One may reframe the issue: What better use can be given to lands currently used for grazing? These are, in theory, not usable for other purposes.

 

[fresh_42]

On the flip-side, vegetarianism/veganism has become fairly trendy (at least in some parts of the UK...), with about half a million new vegans last year. That's not an insignificant change!

Same here. But that only translates to me as "buy less and better meat". We have had such veggie patties for long

and they don't taste bad. I also eat a lot of beans and lens. And I am generally no friend of any sort of fanatism. We definitely could eat less meat, but that does not mean any meat.

The thing is that , at least in theory, cattle is made to graze in the types of lands that do not serve much of other purposes. In that sense they do not, or at least should not, take much of any crop land.

Sorry, but this is wishful thinking (see my argument in post #8334). Cattle eat grass, and our main crops are all grass.

 

[WWGD]

This page has some interesting statistics and analysis:
https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets
In particular, they note that beef, mutton and dairy require significantly more cropland than poultry and fish; so perhaps it's not necessary to stop eating all meat!

Exactly, yes! It's hard for me to convince myself that any change I make to my individual lifestyle will cause anything but an utterly negligible benefit to the environment. Moreover, it's fairly well documented that, for example, energy companies promote rhetoric about "individual action" to divert public attention away from their own comparatively hugely destructive behaviours, e.g. https://www.vox.com/22429551/climate-change-crisis-exxonmobil-harvard-study.

On the flip-side, vegetarianism/veganism has become fairly trendy (at least in some parts of the UK...), with about half a million new vegans last year. That's not an insignificant change!

Ok, good points, it seems I overstated my case.

 

[WWGD]

Would be interesting to see a map where Chinese investors have bought land since 2,000. I guess such a map is closer to a correct answer than any we can give.

Your calculation lacks evidence. The top 4 cattle producers are also the top 4 soybean producers. And if you can grow soybeans, you can also grow lupine.

It does not imply that both are grown in the same soils. Ergosphericals source even states non-flat terrains and some pastures are not productive towards agriculture. Then you can require only those lands be used for cattle. And the main issue is with beef.

 

[fresh_42]

It does not imply that both are grown in the same soils.

Sure, but you converse the reasoning. Cattle and soybeans are grown on different grounds, of course. But that does not mean that it has to be the case. Again, grass is grass, and rice, corn, and cereals are all grass. And again, the top 4 countries in cattle production are the same as the top 4 in soybeans production. Doesn't sound exclusively to me.

It is by far more ecologically stupid to grow almonds in California.

 

[WWGD]

Sure, but you converse the reasoning. Cattle and soybeans are grown on different grounds, of course. But that does not mean that it has to be the case. Again, grass is grass, and rice, corn, and cereals are all grass. And again, the top 4 countries in cattle production are the same as the top 4 in soybeans production. Doesn't sound exclusively to me.

It is by far more ecologically stupid to grow almonds in California.

I agree with the California part. Developing an agricultural industry in what's essentially a desert seems like lunacy. I am being something of a devil's advocate here in order to help flesh out the arguments; though maybe possibly just for myself. And I urge caution in making these changes. I don't know of any culture over history that was fully vegan . Why not, if Veganism is superior in so many ways? And just considering that all countries at the top of life expectancy at birth are omnivorous, while vegetarian ones are further down on the list. Surely, there are confounding variables to consider here , but it seems food for thought. My body just seems to ask me specifically for meat. It may just be habit, maybe not. I'm just urging caution. Change is neither good not bad on its own.
Edit: Just to be clear, I don't claim to be offering conclusive counters to Ergosphericals and others' valid points. Just using these points to urge caution.

 

[BillTre]

I don't know of any culture over history that was fully vegan

vegetarian ones are further down on the list

You seem to have contradicted yourself.

 

[WWGD]

You seem to have contradicted yourself.

Ok, India today is largely vegetarian. I don't know if it always has been. Similar for Bangladesh. Surely the fact that life expectancy at birth is comparatively low is food for thought.

 

[WWGD]

My overall point is that, despite all legitimate issues today, quality of life by just-about every measure has been improving within the status quo. Including in areas related to health and nutrition.

Of course, that doesn't imply no changes should be made, just to think we were largely doing a good amount right up till now.

 

[ergospherical]

And just considering that all countries at the top of life expectancy at birth are omnivorous, while vegetarian ones are further down on the list. Surely, there are confounding variables to consider here , but it seems food for thought.

A factor to consider is that meat is relatively expensive, so generally as the affluence of a society increases so does meat consumption; we've seen an increased appetite for the "Western-style diet" in emerging economies like China¹, for example.

¹ https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017...roblem-and-the-western-diet-could-be-to-blame

 

[WWGD]

I tried

A factor to consider is that meat is relatively expensive, so generally as the affluence of a society increases so does meat consumption; we've seen an increased appetite for the "Western-style diet" in emerging economies like China¹, for example.

¹ https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017...roblem-and-the-western-diet-could-be-to-blame

I tried the veg diet for a while and I just didn't feel good. Same for my brother and some friends. I need to be able to work and need to have the energy for it.

 

[ergospherical]

I tried the veg diet for a while and I just didn't feel good. Same for my brother and some friends. I need to be able to work and need to have the energy for it.

I believe this is common (although I haven't tried myself, so I wouldn't know from personal experience). Perhaps it is due to deficiencies in nutrients, e.g. vitamin B12 and/or iron.

I also recall reading a little while back about a study which suggested veganism is correlated with higher depression rates compared to meat-eating ¹. The direction of causation is not clear (i.e. are people with symptoms of depression more likely to become vegan, or vice versa?).

¹ https://www.businessinsider.com/veg...on-anxiety-than-meat-eaters-2021-10?r=US&IR=T

 

[WWGD]

Found some pretty old SQL Server files (.sql) containing system queries to map logins to users and roles. Wonder if they're worth much.