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Jazzyrohan

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- #1

Jazzyrohan

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- #2

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The constancy of the speed of light in all inertial frames. If you are thinking that things actually change size in their own frame of reference, then that is your problem, since that does not happen.

- #3

Grinkle

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what is the physical phenomenon due to which it occurs?

If the speed of light is the same for all observers, then the passage of time (the measured duration between events) cannot be the same for all observers. Its impossible for both of those things to be the same - its an over-constrained situation. Satisfy yourself of that logic as a first step. Once you have comprehended the impossibility of two observers not at rest with respect to each other agreeing on both the speed of light and the passage of time, then study the experiments that show indeed all observers do agree on the speed of light.

There is no mechanistic explanation for why time moves at different rates for different observers. You might as well ask (and its a better / more fundamental question imo) why is the speed of light constant for all observers. Time dilation is just a consequence of that experimentally confirmed feature of the universe. Once a constant c is established, time dilation must exist. These are not at all independent phenomena, and the one we can most easily observe is / measure is c.

This forum is littered with in depth discussions of the workings of clocks. Examining time dilation from that perspective is really a big distraction, imo.

edit:

For me, the best answer to your question is :

The constant speed of light is the physical phenomena due to which time dilation occurs.

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- #4

Ibix

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There isn't one. Time dilation is much the same effect as putting a ruler diagonally on a piece of graph paper and realising that the ruler markings don't match up with the grid. That's because the distance the ruler is measuring isn't in the same direction as the distance the grid is measuring.

That's as close to a "physical phenomenon" as you are going to get. Two frames in relative motion define "time" to be a slightly different direction in spacetime, like the ruler and the grid. If you analyse the function of a moving clock using relativity you'll find that it doesn't measure your time, but rather a mix of time and distance, just as the ruler measures a combination of x-distance and y-distance according to the graph grid.

As @phinds says, this can all be seen as a consequence of Einstein's two postulates - the principle of relativity and the constancy of the speed of light. Minkowski put that on a nice footing by observing that Einstein's maths following from that could be understood as implying the existence of 4d spacetime, and how you split that into space and time depends on your choice of "stationary" object and clock synchronisation method.

- #5

Nugatory

Mentor

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Another way of understanding "Why time dilation?" is to start with the relativity of simultaneity (google for "Einstein train simultaneity"), which does have a clear physical explanation - it follows from the constant speed of light. Once you understand relativity of simultaneity, you have your explanation of time dilation:

- A and B are moving relative to one another, and both set their clocks to zero as they pass one another.

- If we consider A to be at rest, we find that at the same time that A's clock reads 10 seconds B's clock reads 5 seconds. Therefore, A considers B's time to be dilated by a factor of two.

- However, if we consider B to be at rest, the events "A's clock reads 10 seconds" and "B's clock reads 5 seconds" do not happen at the same time; at the same that B's clock reads 5 seconds A's clock reads 2.5 seconds so B considers A's time to be dilated by a factor of two.

Many non-serious treatments of special relativity focus too much on time dilation and length contraction and too little on relativity of simultaneity. This leads to endless confusion and misunderstanding, as all three are required to make sense of the subject.

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- #6

Jazzyrohan

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I know that things do not actually change size in their refernce frames but only is observed to be doing so. I am asking if time dilation occurs due to the time taken by the light to reach us or something of that sort.The constancy of the speed of light in all inertial frames. If you are thinking that things actually change size in their own frame of reference, then that is your problem, since that does not happen.

- #7

A.T.

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No, time dilation is what remains after you accounted for signal delay.I am asking if time dilation occurs due to the time taken by the light to reach us or something of that sort.

- #8

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Then reread post #4I know that things do not actually change size in their refernce frames but only is observed to be doing so. I am asking if time dilation occurs due to the time taken by the light to reach us or something of that sort.

- #9

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Some of the introductory material on SR may give the impression that the delay in light signals reaching an observer is of some physical significance, but it is not. Observations of the time of an event must take into account how long the signal takes to reach the observer, whether the information is sent by light, sound or carrier pigeon!I know that things do not actually change size in their refernce frames but only is observed to be doing so. I am asking if time dilation occurs due to the time taken by the light to reach us or something of that sort.

- #10

Jazzyrohan

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- #11

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I like " Special Relativity" by Helliwell. The maths required for SR should be fairly modest, as is the case with this book.

- #12

Sorcerer

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If the speed of light is the same for all observers, then the passage of time (the measured duration between events) cannot be the same for all observers. Its impossible for both of those things to be the same - its an over-constrained situation. Satisfy yourself of that logic as a first step. Once you have comprehended the impossibility of two observers not at rest with respect to each other agreeing on both the speed of light and the passage of time, then study the experiments that show indeed all observers do agree on the speed of light.

There is no mechanistic explanation for why time moves at different rates for different observers. You might as well ask (and its a better / more fundamental question imo) why is the speed of light constant for all observers. Time dilation is just a consequence of that experimentally confirmed feature of the universe. Once a constant c is established, time dilation must exist. These are not at all independent phenomena, and the one we can most easily observe is / measure is c.

This forum is littered with in depth discussions of the workings of clocks. Examining time dilation from that perspective is really a big distraction, imo.

edit:

For me, the best answer to your question is :

The constant speed of light is the physical phenomena due to which time dilation occurs.

This has always been the most obvious logical explanation for me. But the more I dive into special relativity, the more I'm beginning to see why all the physics instructors are trying to teach it from a Minkowski spacetime and spacetime diagram perspective. Still, I find my mind recoils at that way of looking at it even now.

- #13

Ibix

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For SR you can get away with algebra, as long as you don't want to think about realistic acceleration, which needs you to be able to integrate and differentiate. I could handle the maths by the time I left school - I'd be surprised if you couldn't.

I rather like Taylor and Wheeler's Spacetime Physics - the first chapter is free online if you want to tryy before you buy.

- #14

Jazzyrohan

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Right now I have a good grasp over calculus in single variables.Would that be enough to read introductory books on SR?For SR you can get away with algebra, as long as you don't want to think about realistic acceleration, which needs you to be able to integrate and differentiate. I could handle the maths by the time I left school - I'd be surprised if you couldn't.

I rather like Taylor and Wheeler's Spacetime Physics - the first chapter is free online if you want to tryy before you buy.

- #15

Ibix

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Easily. General paths through 4d spacetime probably require some partial differentiation, but as long as you stick to motion in a line (as most introductory SR does) you're fine.Right now I have a good grasp over calculus in single variables.Would that be enough to read introductory books on SR?

- #16

Jazzyrohan

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Thank you so much.Easily. General paths through 4d spacetime probably require some partial differentiation, but as long as you stick to motion in a line (as most introductory SR does) you're fine.

- #17

Sorcerer

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Current SR learner myself, and I strongly suggest learning linear algebra if you want to go beyond the semester 1 physics version of SR. Here's a free online text on linear algebra:Thank you so much.

http://linear.ups.edu/html/section-WILA.html

- #18

David Lewis

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Is there a difference between being observed to change size and actually changing size?…things do not actually change size in their reference frames but only is observed to be doing so.

Einstein also initially rebelled against Minkowski space. He called it unnecessary learnedness. He believed in comprehension before calculation.I'm beginning to see why all the physics instructors are trying to teach it from a Minkowski spacetime and spacetime diagram perspective. Still, I find my mind recoils at that way of looking at it even now.

- #19

Mentz114

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Yes.Is there a difference between being observed to change size and actually changing size?

Einstein soon changed this view and immersed himself in 4D spacetime for 10 years before coming up with GTR.Einstein also initially rebelled against Minkowski space. He called it unnecessary learnedness. He believed in comprehension before calculation.

- #20

Thecla

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- #21

Ibix

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A little care is needed with this statement. The principle of relativity leads to two distinct self-consistent theories. Both have an invariant speed, one which is the same in all inertial frames of reference. In one case it is finite, and this is relativity, and in one case it is infinite, and this is Newtonian physics.

So the truth of your statement depends on what you mean by "the speed of light". If you mean the invariant speed (whatever it is) then its true. If you mean the speed at which light travels then that depends on a theory of light consistent with Newtonian physics, and we don't have one. Maxwell's equations were relativistic from the outset, even when we didn't know about relativity. That's how the whole business got started.

- #22

poetryphysics

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I’ve often pictured the physics of time dilation this way (amalgamated from several sources): from the perspective of a ground based observer looking at a person in a spaceship flying by, the action potentials (for example) of the neurons of the person in the spaceship must be moving slowly. That’s because I take the motion of the action potentials as basically orthogonal to the motion of the spaceship, so that if they did not slow down, the sum of their motion plus the rocket ship moving at like .999c would be greater than c. So from the ground, one second for the rocket observer would be a long time. Of course the rocket observer would see the ground observer in motion, and so would say that it is the ground observer’s action potentials that move slowly...

So it is because of c. I’ve never been certain that the above logic completely squares with the usual pedagogy (and if it doesn’t, where the problem is). And I’m becoming more convinced these days that Lorentz invariance is the more important thing to try to understand...

- #23

Ibix

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If you are talking about three-velocities here, I don't think this is correct. If you are talking about four-velocities then it makes more sense. Note that they aren't orthogonal, but they are non-parallel.That’s because I take the motion of the action potentials as basically orthogonal to the motion of the spaceship,

All directly measurable things are Lorentz invariant, so yes. I gather Einstein said that he'd have preferred the whole thing to be called the Theory of Invariants, in fact.And I’m becoming more convinced these days that Lorentz invariance is the more important thing to try to understand...

- #24

David Lewis

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Rotation. Anything moving with respect to you rotates out of a space dimension and into the time dimension. What it gains in time, it loses in length.

- #25

Grinkle

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Rotation. Anything moving with respect to you rotates out of a space dimension and into the time dimension. What it gains in time, it loses in length.

It sounds like you are invoking a mechanical metaphor by using the word rotation, but I can't follow what you are saying (and I am not implying that is your fault). Can you clarify?

- #26

- #27

sweet springs

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Let us see a bar on the ground. We go around the bar and find its length in our tranverse direction(x) and length in longtitudinal direction (y) varies according to what angle to the bar we are. Bar Length^2 = x^2 + y^2 is kept constant during our walk.

Time dilation is something similar to that. According to a kind of angle we take, that is moving speed to referring thing, time length (t) and space length(x) of a kind of bar, that is world line of referring thing, vary. World Line Length^2=t^2-x^2, or more fully, c^2t^2-x^2-y^2-z^2 is kept constant during our change of angle or taking various speeds to Thing. One plus and three minus signs in the formula touch the core of relativity.

- #28

David Lewis

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Is the

- #29

Rap

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Different inertial frames have different "points of view", they divide spacetime up into space and time in different ways. People in different inertial systems disagree about the time between two events in the same way people viewing a circle at different angles will disagree on what it looks like. They both understand why they disagree, just as relativity explains why two inertial systems may disagree.

- #30

Mister T

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First of all, it cannot be shown mathematically. It's shown physically.

Secondly, what do you mean by the notion that it's due to some physical phenomenon? It is itself a physical phenomenon.

Ask yourself what physical phenomenon is responsible for the fact that the reading on a clock changes continuously?

- #31

PAllen

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Still in the analog world, are we?Ask yourself what physical phenomenon is responsible for the fact that the reading on a clock changes continuously?

- #32

Sorcerer

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If you want to know that, ask me, Sorcerer... because the answer isAsk yourself what physical phenomenon is responsible for the fact that the reading on a clock changes continuously?

- #33

nitsuj

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I know that things do not actually change size in their reference frames but only is observed to be doing so. I am asking if time dilation occurs due to the time taken by the light to reach us or something of that sort.

I like the perspective it's the geometry of spacetime; however that is one step after the most favored irreducible reply, that c is invariant. Am surprised no one mentioned causality. That's a fun one to think of as being the cause of time dilation / length contraction.

For a simply put book on SR, Relativity (a brief insight) by Russell Stannard is one I like. He put's a fair amount of emphasis on measurement (in turn perspectives); which I find important when developing an understanding of the concept in general.

- #34

Ebeb

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Different inertial frames have different "points of view", they divide spacetime up into space and time in different ways. People in different inertial systems disagree about the time between two events in the same way people viewing a circle at different angles will disagree on what it looks like. They both understand why they disagree, just as relativity explains why two inertial systems may disagree.

There's also the Block Universe interpretation:

The physical phenomenon is not that one looks at a physical 3D object from a different point of view, but rather that one observes a different cut through a physical 4D 'spacetime' object.

(To follow your circle/ellips comparison: the ellips is not a different view of the circle, but a cut at a different angle though a cylinder)

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- #35

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I like the perspective it's the geometry of spacetime; however that is one step after the most favored irreducible reply, that c is invariant. Am surprised no one mentioned causality. That's a fun one to think of as being the cause of time dilation / length contraction.

For a simply put book on SR, Relativity (a brief insight) by Russell Stannard is one I like. He put's a fair amount of emphasis on measurement (in turn perspectives); which I find important when developing an understanding of the concept in general.

I would have mentioned causality and other things but I was too busy to comment and the thread has gone on for a while now.

But since you mentioned causality...

I would say that the big idea in relativity and spacetime, at the deepest level, isn't the Lorentz group but it is the causal structure.

And there are some interesting papers along these lines.

"Causality Implies the Lorentz Group"

Journal of Mathematical Physics 5, 490 (1964); https://doi.org/10.1063/1.1704140

E. C. Zeeman

"A contribution to chronogeometry"

Canad. J. Math. 19(1967), 1119-1128 https://cms.math.ca/10.4153/CJM-1967-102-6

A. D. Alexandrov

"Zeeman topologies on space-times of general relativity theory"

Communications in Mathematical Physics, October 1976, Volume 46, Issue 3, pp 289–307 https://doi.org/10.1007/BF01609125

Rüdiger Göbel

and likely what first inspired this line of thinking was

"The Absolute Relations of TIme and Space" (1921) and "The Geometry of Time and Space" (1936)

https://archive.org/search.php?query=creator:"Robb,Alfred+A."

A.A. Robb ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Robb )

where he used the notion of "after" (a partial order relation) to try to "derive" Minkowski spacetime.

Robb introduced the notion of "rapidity" is relativity.

His "Optical Geometry of Motion" (1911) https://archive.org/details/opticalgeometryo00robbrich is surprisingly insightful for 1911, just a few years after Minkowski (1907) and Einstein (1905). You can see aspects of the radar method in it.

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