What is the proper grammar for my example sentence?

[timmeister37]

You and she (referentially called her and me) are passive voice direct objects, because you're doing the recipiency of the assigning; however, as assignees, you're also arguably indirect objects, because you're not only direct recipients of the action; you're also recipients of results of the action -- typically indirect objects are things acted upon by direct objects.

I am totally confused.

 

[timmeister37]

Yes. This can be seen better in the active voice, "The teacher gave her and me the assignment". The teacher gave what? The assignment = direct object. The teacher gave the assignment to whom? Her and me = indirect objects.

How does determining whether a pronoun is a direct object or an indirect object help one figure out whether the pronoun should be in the objective case or the subjective case? I think both pronouns that are direct objects and pronouns that are indirect objects are both supposed to be in the objective case.

 

[timmeister37]

In the sentence "He was walking down the street", the word "was" is a helping verb, not a linking verb.

Mark44 used the term auxillary verb.
Helping verb= auxillary verb

A linking verb is NOT the same as a helping verb.

 

[timmeister37]

I don't think your concept of a "linking" verb is a good one. The following sentences are all grammatically identical except for case/tense. The "was", "is", etc belong intimitely with the walking and should not be looked at as something separate.

He walks down the street.
He is walking down the street.
He was walking down the street.
He walked down the street.
He will be walking down the street.
He would be walking down the street.

All those constructs are the same, extended with "with her" on the end.

He walks down the street with her.

Phinds, what do you think about the rule i wrote for determining proper pronoun case in post #27?

P.S. is the dog in your avatar photograph your dog?

 

[sysprog]

How does determining whether a pronoun is an indirect object or a direct object help you determine whether the pronoun should be in the objective case or the subjective case? I thought both pronouns that are direct objects and pronouns that are indirect objects are both objective case.

I'm not the one who brought in the direct-indirect object idea -- I just wanted the subject-object distinction -- I think that some people are sometimes overly conscientious against using 'me' in the subjective (incorrectly, as in me and her are going to the store) so that they are apt to over-correctively and consequently incorrectly (as in 'she's going to the store with her and I') use 'I' instead of 'me' when they are referring to themselves in the objective.

 

[timmeister37]

I'm not the one who brought in the direct-indirect object idea

Yes you did. The first mentioning of direct objects and indirect objects on this thread was made by you on post #28.

I just wanted the subject-object distinction -- I think that some people are sometimes overly conscientious against using 'me' in the subjective (incorrectly, as in me and her are going to the store) so that they are apt to over-correctively and consequently incorrectly (as in 'she's going to the store with her and I') use 'I' instead of 'me' when they are referring to themselves in the objective.

 

[sysprog]

I am just a guy with only a high school education in English grammar.

Edit: As far a FORMAL education in English grammar goes, i have only a high school education in English grammar.

I self-educated myself on proper pronoun case usage ten years ago, but i have forgotten a lot of that knowledge.

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Perhaps you are substantially higher in IQ than I am. Perhaps you can make connections so effortlessly while i cannot make the connections effortlessly, so that things that are intuitively obvious to you and just go without saying to you have to be explicitly spelled out to me.

Apparently you sometimes feel like I do when I'm playing coffeehouse chess with someone who just sees things that I don't -- it's ok, we'll probably see it later . . .

 

[sysprog]

Yes you did. The first mentioning of direct objects and indirect objects on this thread was made by you on post #28.

ok, that's true, I brought the wikipedia ref that used those terms -- I was trying to emphasize the subject-object distinction . . .

 

[timmeister37]

Apparently you sometimes feel like I do when I'm playing coffeehouse chess with someone who just sees things that I don't -- it's ok, we'll probably see it later . . .

Sysprog, do you agree with the rule i wrote in post #27?

 

[Mark44]

<styleboy>Hey Sir it's firm grasp of them; not solid grip on them</styleboy> ⋯⋯\cdots

One can have a firm grasp or a firm grip on something. Maybe "firm" is the better choice than "solid," but I think you "gripped" my meaning.

 

[Mark44]

Sysprog, do you agree with the rule i wrote in post #27?

Can you restate that rule? We're now at post #61, so this was 34 posts back.

 

[sysprog]

Can you restate that rule? We're now at post #61, so this was 34 posts back.

The right rule is to distinguish correctly between subject and object when deciding whether to say 'she' or 'her', or 'I' or 'me' (not that you didn't already know that, Sir).

 

[Mark44]

How does determining whether a pronoun is a direct object or an indirect object help one figure out whether the pronoun should be in the objective case or the subjective case?

I don't see how it's relevant at all. Here are two examples using her:
1. Fred gave her a bouquet. -- Direct object "bouquet," indirect object "her."
2. For the position of director, I nominate her. -- Direct object, "her."

What's important is to distinguish between whether the pronoun is a subject or an object (either direct object or indirect). It's the difference between "Who is calling?" and "To whom did you wish to speak?"
In the first, "who" is the subject; in the second "you" is the subject and "whom" is the indirect object.

 

[Mark44]

The right rule is to distinguish correctly between subject and object when deciding whether to say 'she' or 'her', or 'I' or 'me'.

I was asking @timmeister37 to state his rule -- I didn't want to have to trawl back through a bunch of posts.

 

[sysprog]

The transitivity of 'gave' renders problematic the determination of which object is direct and which indirect, but it's not problematic for determination of subject vis-a-vis object . . .

 

[timmeister37]

Can you restate that rule? We're now at post #61, so this was 34 posts back.

The posts are all numbered. It is a long rule. It is on the second page.

Mark44, you already agreed with the rule upthread. I am curious as to sysprog's opinion.

 

[timmeister37]

I was asking @timmeister37 to state his rule -- I didn't want to have to trawl back through a bunch of posts.

I changed my mind.
I will restate it, Mark44. It will take several minutes though

 

[kuruman]

At this point of the discussion I feel I should caution against confusing the object with a predicate nominative.
From the Daily Grammar, "A predicate nominative or predicate noun completes a linking verb and renames the subject. It is a complement or completer because it completes the verb (predicate)."
Example: (Pointing at a person in a photo) "In this photo my mother is she, do you remember her?" "She" for predicate nominative, "her" for direct object.

 

[timmeister37]

The following is my rule in post #27:

As i recall, the rule for which pronoun case to use has to do with the verb form in the sentence. As i recall, if the sentence uses a linking verb to link the predicate pronoun back to the subject of the sentence, then the predicate pronoun should be the subjective case (she). If the sentence does not use a linking verb to link the predicate pronoun back to the subject of the sentence, then the predicate pronoun should be the objective case (her). The only linking verb that matters for this rule is the linking verb that separates the subject from the predicate in the sentence, not any other linking verb in this sentence.

 

[sysprog]

The following is my rule in post #27:

As i recall, the rule for which pronoun case to use has to do with the verb form in the sentence. As i recall, if the sentence uses a linking verb to link the predicate pronoun back to the subject of the sentence, then the predicate pronoun should be the subjective case (she). If the sentence does not use a linking verb to link the predicate pronoun back to the subject of the sentence, then the predicate pronoun should be the objective case (her). The only linking verb that matters for this rule is the linking verb that separates the subject from the predicate in the sentence, not any other linking verb in this sentence.

I would like to see sentential examples.

 

[timmeister37]

The following is my rule in post #27:

As i recall, the rule for which pronoun case to use has to do with the verb form in the sentence. As i recall, if the sentence uses a linking verb to link the predicate pronoun back to the subject of the sentence, then the predicate pronoun should be the subjective case (she). If the sentence does not use a linking verb to link the predicate pronoun back to the subject of the sentence, then the predicate pronoun should be the objective case (her). The only linking verb that matters for this rule is the linking verb that separates the subject from the predicate in the sentence, not any other linking verb in this sentence.

I think i might have found a flaw in my rule in post #27. My post #27 says the following: If the sentence does not use a linking verb to link the predicate pronoun back to the subject of the sentence, then the predicate pronoun should be the objective case (her).
Consider the following sentence: I am smarter than she.

I know that "I am smarter than she" is correct grammar.

Is "am smarter" a linking verb?

 

[timmeister37]

I would like to see sentential examples.

There is an example in my post #71.

 

[sysprog]

I think i might have found a flaw in my rule in post #27. My post #27 says the following: If the sentence does not use a linking verb to link the predicate pronoun back to the subject of the sentence, then the predicate pronoun should be the objective case (her).
Consider the following sentence: I am smarter than she.

I know that "I am smarter than she" is correct grammar.

Is "am smarter" a linking verb?

I would say 'I am taller than she is' (2 instances of the 'esse' (to be) verb) -- in my view, your sentence does not include a 'linking' verb, but I don't use that terminology . . .

 

[Evo]

This isn't the homework forum. Thread closed pending deletion.

 

[Mark44]

This isn't the homework forum. Thread closed pending deletion.

I'm almost certain this isn't a homework question.

 

[Evo]

I'm almost certain this isn't a homework question.

It's definitely "homework like" and if it's this much like homework, it goes in homework, that's always been our rule. The information here would be of benefit to any student with similar school work.

 

[Mark44]

As i recall, the rule for which pronoun case to use has to do with the verb form in the sentence. As i recall, if the sentence uses a linking verb to link the predicate pronoun back to the subject of the sentence, then the predicate pronoun should be the subjective case (she). If the sentence does not use a linking verb to link the predicate pronoun back to the subject of the sentence, then the predicate pronoun should be the objective case (her).

I think this is correct. The only linking verb (this is terminology I don't recall from when I was learning grammar) is "to be," in its various conjugations, tenses, and moods. I won't swear to this, though,.

Is "am smarter" a linking verb?

No, just "am." Here the adjective "smarter" modifies the subject, "I."

I would say 'I am taller than she is'

"I am taller than she" is also correct. The final "is" is implied.

 

[Mark44]

It's definitely "homework like" and if it's this much like homework, it goes in homework, that's always been our rule. The information here would be of benefit to any student with similar school work.

No, not homework-like. I've been involved with the thread since the beginning. The OP is just curious about how pronouns work in English.

Aside from not being homework, we don't have a Homework section devoted to English grammar.

Please leave the thread open...

 

[sysprog]

Well, thanks for re-opening the thread, and for not deleting it -- I understand that's it's not really physics, but I for one think that it's interesting.

 

[phinds]

Well, thanks for re-opening the thread, and for not deleting it -- I understand that's it's not really physics, but I for one think that it's interesting.

There's no requirement that things in general discussion have to be any STEM topics

 

[Evo]

There's no requirement that things in general discussion have to be any STEM topics

But if it's presented like the OP's first post, it would be considered homework. Also, the OP's attitude is inappropriate.

 

[hutchphd]

Again I feel I must be missing what the fuss is about.
The word in question is the object of a preposition. What else is required??

 

[sysprog]

But if it's presented like the OP's first post, it would be considered homework. Also, the OP's attitude is inappropriate.

Well, even though I'm just a regular member, I to some extent concur with you regarding your pointing out of inappropriateness, and I detested the way @PeroK was treated, although I'm confident that he's amply capable of handling things himself $\cdots$

 

[hutchphd]

I think we should mention it once if we are offended and then stop communicating if it continues. Not a big deal...sort of self correcting.
And one can certainly be offended by bad treatment of others... and mention same.

 

[phinds]

I think we should mention it once if we are offended and then stop communicating if it continues

I disagree. It is inappropriate to insult another member and to CONTINUE to do it is totally unacceptable. We should report that, not ignore it.

 

[Mark44]

I to some extent concur with you regarding your pointing out of inappropriateness, and I detested the way @PeroK was treated,

This occurred some 50 or 60 posts back, and was pointed out to the OP, who seems to have mended his ways.

 

[hutchphd]

I disagree. It is inappropriate to insult another member and to CONTINUE to do it is totally unacceptable. We should report that, not ignore it.

I think it is better left to the aggrieved party at that point. If they are not sufficiently offended it seems a little bit of a reach to intervene. To each his own.

.

 

[OCR]

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Lol, that's some fancy formatting. . . but I've never seen the "# # \cdots # #" used before.

It does seem to work, though. . . .

Well, even though I'm just a regular member, I to some extent concur with you regarding your pointing out of inappropriateness, and I detested the way @PeroK was treated, although I'm confident that he's amply capable of handling things himself $\cdots$

.

 

[PeroK]

Since this is rumbling on, I wouldn't worry about me.

 

[timmeister37]

As i said upthread, about ten years ago, i researched this issue in depth. I found an excellent grammar textbook at my local public library. The English grammar textbook i found was John E. Warriner's textbook English Grammar and Composition. With Warriner's textbook English Grammar and Composition, the rules for when one must use the subjective case and when one must use the objective case were crystal clear, and it made so much sense! One thing i remember about the rule that Warriner stated was that i had to know whether or not a verb was intransitive verb or a transitive verb to know whether or not i should use the subjective case or the objective case. I am going to either buy Warriner's textbook or get it on interlibrary loan.
My purpose on this thread is to get a deep understanding of the rules as to which pronoun case to use. I will share this information with everyone on the thread who wants to know as soon as i acquire it.

Although i do think that my rule on post #27 is on the right track, I don't think the rule i posted on post #27 is 100% complete to give one the correct pronoun case 100 % of the time.

P.S. no, this is not a homework question. I don't attend any school. I am on OTR truck driver.

 

[hutchphd]

As i said upthread, about ten years ago, i researched this issue in depth. I found an excellent grammar textbook at my local public library. The English grammar textbook i found was John E. Warriner's textbook English Grammar and Composition. With Warriner's textbook English Grammar and Composition, the rules for when one must use the subjective case and when one must use the objective case were crystal clear, and it made so much sense! One thing i remember about the rule that Warriner stated was that i had to know whether or not a verb was intransitive verb or a transitive verb to know whether or not i should use the subjective case or the objective case. I am going to either buy Warriner's textbook or get it on interlibrary loan.
My purpose on this thread is to get a deep understanding of the rules as to which pronoun case to use. I will share this information with everyone on the thread who wants to know as soon as i acquire it.

Although i do think that my rule on post #27 is on the right track, I don't think the rule i posted on post #27 is 100% complete to give one the correct pronoun case 100 % of the time.

P.S. no, this is not a homework question. I don't attend any school. I am on OTR truck driver.

Again I feel I must be missing what the fuss is about.
The word in question is the object of a preposition. What else is required??

 

[sysprog]

P.S. no, this is not a homework question. I don't attend any school. I am on OTR truck driver.

Thanks for bringing people stuff -- if a person got something it was probably transported by a truck driver -- bless you Sir . . .

 

[timmeister37]

The answer to that question is in the last post i made before this one.

 

[hutchphd]

Please quote the answer because I cannot find it in your post...we must be miscommunicating

 

[sysprog]

Please quote the answer because I cannot find it in your post...we must be miscommunicating

@timmeister37 how does @hutchphd know where you put what? -- or to put it another way -- please don't try too hard to police the thread -- even if it's your thread started by you, if you're not a mentor/moderator here . . .

 

[sysprog]

.
Lol, that's some fancy formatting. . . but I've never seen the "# # \cdots # #" used before.

It does seem to work, though. . . .

View attachment 261449

.

We got to love Professor Don Knuth's $\TeX \cdots$

 

[timmeister37]

hutchphd, this is what the fuss is about.

My purpose on this thread is to get a deep understanding of the rules as to which pronoun case to use. I will share this information with everyone on the thread who wants to know as soon as i acquire it.

 

[timmeister37]

@timmeister37 how does @hutchphd know where you put what? -- or to put it another way -- please don't try too hard to police the thread -- even if it's your thread started by you, if you're not a mentor/moderator here . . .

I am not policing the thread. I am just stating the new purpose of the thread.

 

[Mark44]

My purpose on this thread is to get a deep understanding of the rules as to which pronoun case to use. I will share this information with everyone on the thread who wants to know as soon as i acquire it.

The rule is fairly simple: If a pronoun is in the subject, use the subjective or nominative case: I, he, she, we, they, who. I'm borrowing this term, nominative case, from other languages with inflected noun and pronoun forms, such as Latin, German, Russian, and all other Slavic languages.
If a pronoun is an object, either direct or indirect, use the objective form: me, him, her, us, them, whom.

The two rules above cover most situations.

A special case is a linking verb, which includes all forms of to be and a few others, that is used with a pronoun. In formal English, the answer to the question "Who is there?" would be "It is I". The less formal "It is me" is commonly used, but would raise objections from strict grammarians.

Another special case is a prepositional phrase, in which a more-or-less complete sentence (a clause) follows a preposition. For example, should I use whoever or whomever in this sentence? "I will give $20 to _____________ helps me find my lost keys."
The correct choice here between whoever and whomever is whoever, because whoever is the subjective form that acts as the subject in the clause following the preposition "to."

In contrast, "I will give $20 to whomover." would be correct for this example, since whomever is not the subject of a clause (and in fact never can be the subject, any more than him, her, us, or them could be.

This business with pronouns in prepositional phrases/clauses is about as sticky as pronoun rules get. I would bet that less than 50% of native English speakers would know this.

 

[OCR]

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Well, that's plum neato. . . .

We got to love Professor Don Knuth's $\TeX \ ~\cdots\vdots\dots\vdots\cdots\ ~$

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