What is the reason for mass defect in a nuclide?

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The discussion centers on the concept of mass defect in nuclides, where the mass of a nucleus is less than the sum of its individual nucleons due to the binding energy associated with the strong force. When nucleons are separated, work must be done against this binding energy, resulting in a greater total mass when they are apart compared to when they are bound in a nucleus. This mass defect translates into potential energy, which is negative in a bound system, indicating that the total energy—and thus mass—of the bound system is lower than that of the unbound components. The conversation also touches on how energy and mass are equivalent, with work done on the system increasing its energy and consequently its mass. Overall, the mass defect illustrates the intricate relationship between energy, mass, and the forces at play within atomic nuclei.
  • #31
In relativistic physics there is no conservation of mass, and if I write mass I always mean what's called "invariant mass" not "relativistic mass", which is a misnomer for the energy of the system divided by ##c^2##, but only energy and momentum conservation.

If you have some protons and neutrons at rest, the total energy is ##E_0=(Z m_p+(A-Z) m_n)c^2##, where ##Z## is the number of protons and ##(A-Z)## the number of neutrons (##A## is called the number of nucleons). Now when these nucleons bind together to a nucleus, there is some binding energy, ##-E_B##, which is negative, and it's freed somehow, e.g., by electromagnetic radiation. So the energy of the nucleus at rest is
$$E_A=E_0-E_B$$,
but by definition for the nuclus at rest you have the invariant mass of the nucleus
$$m_A=E_A/c^2.$$
in other words the mass of the nucleus is smaller than the sum of the masses of the nucleons by the amount ##E_B/c^2##.

The same holds true for any other system too. E.g., suppose you have a capacitor with capacitance ##C## and let it's mass be ##m_0## if it's uncharged. Now if you charge it by connecting it to a battery of voltage ##U## the electromagnetic energy stored in this capacitor is
$$E_{\text{em}}=\frac{C}{2}U^2,$$
and this amount of energy you must provide from the battery. Consequently the mass of the charged capacitor is a bit larger than when it's uncharged, i.e., you have
$$m_{\text{charged}}=m_0+\frac{C}{2c^2} U^2.$$

The case of nucleons as bound states of quarks is much more involved and not fully understood. The reason is that the strong interaction is confining, i.e., we never observe free quarks and gluons but only color-charge neutral objects, the hadrons (baryons as bound states of three quarks and mesons as bound states of a quark and an anti-quark). The bound state is a very complicated system of bound quarks and gluons, and about 98% of the proton mass comes somehow from the dynamics of the quark- and gluon-quantum fields. As I said, it's not fully understood, but we have very convincing reasons to believe in this picture, because there are socalled lattice-QCD calculations of the hadron-mass spectrum. The idea behind this is to model space and time as a discrete lattice of points and evaluate the socalled Euclidean path integral of QCD approximately on big computers. With this you can evaluate the masses of the hadrons from QCD. The socalled current-quark mass of u- and d-quarks is only some ##\mathrm{MeV}/c^2## (which is due to the famous Higgs mechanism of the electroweak theory), but nevertheless the mass of the proton comes out at the observed physical value of about ##940 \text{MeV}/c^2##. So it must be the dynamics of the quantum fields via the strong interaction that generates almost the entire mass of the nucleon.
 
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  • #32
Anonymous Vegetable said:
And this work done would be in what form?
Any form of work. When object A does work on object B, energy is transferred from A to B.
 
  • #33
AV, I fully agree with your puzzlement. It seems very odd that energy can be negative, given that energy manifests itself in concrete ways. Mass is basically a "symptom" of energy (the mass of a system is 1/c^2 times the energy as measured by an observer moving along with the center of mass) and spacetime curvature is also proportional to energy. As far as I know, the total energy in any region is never negative (someone please correct me if I'm wrong on this).
Furthermore, the idea of negative energy means that the energy of a system does not really limit how much energy you can extract from it! As long as you create enough negative energy within the system, you can pull out a corresponding amount of useful positive energy. Of course there are only so many ways to bind things, so this isn't really unlimited, but what does "zero energy" really mean? I say no one knows!
This is kind of how things are in physics. We find all these beautiful equations that form consistent systems & describe all the things we observe. But when- or if- we try to think about "what it means", things can be very, very cloudy. Some physicists consider the questions "meaningless philosophy" and strongly discourage them. I encourage you- even if you never get answers, keep right on asking!p.s Vanhees91, with all due respect, I think you could be a bit gentler on a high-school kid. The main result of a detailed answer full of unfamiliar terms will be to scare kids away from the forum...
 
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  • #34
maline said:
p.s Vanhees91, with all due respect, I think you could be a bit gentler on a high-school kid. The main result of a detailed answer full of unfamiliar terms will be to scare kids away from the forum...
No offence but being 'slightly' patronising is more likely to scare people away and I think people expect answers to be of a high standard if they ask them. I appreciate what you're saying but frankly, any help is gratefully received. Just because he put some maths in there doesn't make it a demanding answer, proton numbers and atomic mass numbers are not new and a concise formula can be quite enlightening.
 
  • #35
maline said:
As far as I know, the total energy in any region is never negative (someone please correct me if I'm wrong on this).
Furthermore, the idea of negative energy means that the energy of a system does not really limit how much energy you can extract from it! As long as you create enough negative energy within the system, you can pull out a corresponding amount of useful positive energy. Of course there are only so many ways to bind things, so this isn't really unlimited, but what does "zero energy" really mean? I say no one knows!

Zero energy, as far as General Relativity is concerned, is a patch of flat Minkowski space.
 
  • #36
Anonymous Vegetable said:
No offence but being 'slightly' patronising is more likely to scare people away and I think people expect answers to be of a high standard if they ask them. I appreciate what you're saying but frankly, any help is gratefully received. Just because he put some maths in there doesn't make it a demanding answer, proton numbers and atomic mass numbers are not new and a concise formula can be quite enlightening.
I stand corrected and apologize.

Also, perhaps my answer seems less patronising now that I wrote the actual post. I had accidentally clicked "post reply" after only writing the p.s. :-)
 
  • #37
nikkkom said:
Zero energy, as far as General Relativity is concerned, is a patch of flat Minkowski space.
Doesn't that demonstrate my point? Einstein wrote one of the greatest equations in history, describing how curvature depends on energy/momentum/stress. But ask "is the energy zero, positive, or negative?" and the best available answer is "check whether the spacetime is flat"! Can we really be satisfied that we have a concept of energy?
 
  • #38
nikkkom said:
Zero energy, as far as General Relativity is concerned, is a patch of flat Minkowski space.
You've made your point hahaha.
 
  • #39
maline said:
I stand corrected and apologize.

Also, perhaps my answer seems less patronising now that I wrote the actual post. I had accidentally clicked "post reply" after only writing the p.s. :-)
And I too apologise if I sounded a bit defensive there. I appreciate you taking the time to answer and sorry for any misunderstanding.
 
  • #40
maline said:
p.s Vanhees91, with all due respect, I think you could be a bit gentler on a high-school kid. The main result of a detailed answer full of unfamiliar terms will be to scare kids away from the forum...
Ehm, if what I wrote is unfamiliar to high school students, I'm really even more worried about the state of our schools (world wide) than I was before. So what's supposed to be unfamiliar?
 
  • #41
On rereading, your post is much lighter than I thought. I apologize. The discussion of lattice-QCD could be a bit scary though, depending on the reader's attitude.
 
  • #42
maline said:
Doesn't that demonstrate my point? Einstein wrote one of the greatest equations in history, describing how curvature depends on energy/momentum/stress. But ask "is the energy zero, positive, or negative?" and the best available answer is "check whether the spacetime is flat"! Can we really be satisfied that we have a concept of energy?

Don't know about you, but for me this answer is acceptable. GR says that region of zero energy must be flat (and thus, necessarily empty) Minkowski space. It does not require any stretch of imagination to declare that empty space has zero energy.
 
  • #43
nikkkom said:
It does not require any stretch of imagination to declare that empty space has zero energy.
Certainly, empty space has zero (local) energy. But is that the only possible situation with zero energy? If so, why?
 
  • #44
Well, gravitational waves are solutions of the source-free Einstein equations, i.e., a spacetime with zero energy. See, e.g.,

http://www.itp.kit.edu/~schreck/general_relativity_seminar/Gravitational_waves_in_general_relativity_exact_plane_waves.pdf
 
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  • #45
vanhees71 said:
Well, gravitational waves are solutions of the source-free Einstein equations, i.e., a spacetime with zero energy.
That's why I mentioned local energy- to avoid the complications of "gravitational energy". I am more interested here in how the energy density- the (0,0) element of the Stress-Energy Tensor- can be defined without reference to gravity or to particular examples. Also whether this density can ever be negative, because to me, that is a determining factor in whether energy can be thought of as a "substance".
 
  • #46
Uh, everyone, this thread is marked "B". Maybe we don't need to go down the GR rabbit hole?
 
  • #47
Yes, I suppose the question about defining energy should really be a separate thread. I will start it now.
 
  • #48
maline said:
Yes, I suppose the question about defining energy should really be a separate thread. I will start it now.
Thanks for the help everyone anyway and enjoy your rabbit hole hahaha.
 
  • #49
Vanadium 50 said:
Uh, everyone, this thread is marked "B". Maybe we don't need to go down the GR rabbit hole?
Well, how do you want to discuss gravitational waves without GR? It's like asking to discuss electromagnetic waves without reference to Maxwell ;-)). SCNR.
 

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