What is the relationship between torque and net forces in a rotating system?

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Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around the relationship between torque and net forces in a rotating system, specifically analyzing a scenario involving a man standing on a railroad car rounding a turn. The problem involves understanding the implications of torque being zero about the center of mass and its relation to other points in the system.

Discussion Character

  • Conceptual clarification, Assumption checking

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • Participants explore the reasoning behind why zero torque about the center of mass implies zero torque about any point, questioning the role of net forces in this context.

Discussion Status

The discussion is active, with participants examining the implications of net forces and torques. Some have provided insights into the relationship between forces and moments, while others are questioning the assumptions regarding net forces and their effects on torque.

Contextual Notes

Participants are considering the effects of centripetal acceleration and the positioning of forces relative to the center of mass, as well as the implications of angular momentum in a curved path.

Fibo112
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Homework Statement


A man of Mass M stands on a railroad car that is rounding an unbanked turn of radius R at speed v. His center of mass is height L above the car, and his feet are distance d apart. The man is facing the direction of motion. How much weight is on each of his feet.

Homework Equations


I have solved the problem too ensure that the torque about the center of mass is zero. What I don't understand is why the torque about the center of mass being zero ensures that the torque about any point is zero. I know that this is the case if there are no net forces acting, but that isn't the case here.

The Attempt at a Solution

 
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Fibo112 said:
why the torque about the center of mass being zero ensures that the torque about any point is zero.
Suppose there is no net moment about some point: ##\Sigma \vec {F_i}\times\vec {r_i}=0##.
Consider an axis at vectorial position ##-\vec a## from the first. The sum of moments about that point is ##\Sigma \vec {F_i}\times(\vec {r_i}+\vec a)=\Sigma \vec {F_i}\times\vec {r_i}+\Sigma \vec {F_i}\times\vec a =(\Sigma \vec {F_i})\times\vec a##.
So if there is no net force then the sum of moments is the same everywhere.
 
If there was a nonzero torque around a certain point, you would see the man spinning (accelerating) about that point.
 
haruspex said:
Suppose there is no net moment about some point: ##\Sigma \vec {F_i}\times\vec {r_i}=0##.
Consider an axis at vectorial position ##-\vec a## from the first. The sum of moments about that point is ##\Sigma \vec {F_i}\times(\vec {r_i}+\vec a)=\Sigma \vec {F_i}\times\vec {r_i}+\Sigma \vec {F_i}\times\vec a =(\Sigma \vec {F_i})\times\vec a##.
So if there is no net force then the sum of moments is the same everywhere.
But there is a net force isn't there?
 
Fibo112 said:
But there is a net force isn't there?
Good point.
There is a net force through the man's mass centre, providing the centripetal acceleration.
That does not have any moment about the mass centre, so there is no net torque about that point. But there is a net torque about points not in that line of action.
Say the train is curving to the left. The net force acts to the left. Taking moments about a point between his feet, there is an anticlockwise torque.
Consider the centre of arc of the curve his feet are following. The man has angular momentum about that point. Because his mass centre is above the point, that angular momentum vector is not vertical. The torque produces precession, just like a gyroscope. The angular momentum vector changes direction as the man follows the curve.
 

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